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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288926: Nov 14th 2021 at 2:32:14 PM

[up] No this is only about if I should keep the links at the end of entries that don't have pages on the site.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288927: Nov 14th 2021 at 2:39:23 PM

I say keep 'em if it's feasible.

Also, thinking of it, we may be able to remove the video game folder for Disney:

  • Haunted Mansion goes to the others folder with the franchise
  • Ditto Pirates Online
  • Bolt maybe SHOULD be moved to Disney Animated Canon, Other Works folder

Edited by ACW on Nov 14th 2021 at 5:47:55 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#288928: Nov 14th 2021 at 2:53:54 PM

Did we decide rather to reorganized the Disney page so all the folders are by release day?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#288929: Nov 14th 2021 at 2:53:56 PM

Yes to book version of Mercer. And in the Film, he is another perfect example of someone who has very much personality of a CM, but barely any onscreen deeds to qualify. I personally lean on putting him under Literature only.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288930: Nov 14th 2021 at 2:58:34 PM

Again Bolt The Video Game is an adaptation, not a canon piece if we added those Twisted Tales and Chills would need to be added.

I would say it should all be by release date I didn't even notice it wasn't.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#288931: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:05:29 PM

It should be noted that if we move adaptions to that folder we run into a problem with stuff like OUAT. That extra folder should be for canon stuff only in my opinion.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#288932: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:07:27 PM

@Ordeaux Oh ones broken links? Cut or don't cut? That what you mean?

With Grievous, Krennic and Phasma, their actions while fitting more so in the supplemental materials still helped their film versions count. I get there was clear, unequivocal consistency there though unlike here.

[down][down][down]Mercer is consistent though even though Beckett isn't. I think we sound be allowed to practice Canon Discontinuity with one while keeping solid continuity with both mediums for the other though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 14th 2021 at 3:21:15 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288933: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:09:56 PM

I don't know if any of the Web Original stuff are broken as I didn't check all the links if someone wants to check them feel free.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288934: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:11:29 PM

Oh, right, you guys make a point about Bolt.

The Pirates stuff I'm fine having all in one folder though.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288935: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:14:23 PM

[up][up][up] With Star Wars though (at least the recent canon) everything is explicitly canon

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288937: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:25:33 PM

[down][down][Mercer is consistent though even though Beckett isn't. I think we sound be allowed to practice Canon Discontinuity with one while keeping solid continuity with both mediums for the other though

Why?

Edited by miraculous on Nov 14th 2021 at 3:25:49 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#288938: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:27:08 PM

It does kinda seem to be a weird state where Beckett is straight up changed as a character but Mercer just strikes as an expansion... like, I'm sure it ends with him getting ready to do whatever he does in the films.

At this point I don't really care but it's kinda weirdly framed.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 14th 2021 at 11:27:58 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288939: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:31:33 PM

Which is why I think just keeping in the book is fine.

As like to keep Mercer in both would also mean to outright ignore what happened with Beckett in the same book. And picking and choosing for canon like that is not something I'm comfortable with in general. Especially for a dubiously canon book.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#288940: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:33:54 PM

[up]Yeah…understandable. I don't like it, but it's a fact I have to accept.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 14th 2021 at 3:34:12 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#288941: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:34:57 PM

Eh, agree to disagree.

Bow to the Prototype
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#288942: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:40:51 PM

My final word on is it we do the exact same treatment to comics like there's no tomorrow (see: the comic where Tarkin explicitly has a redeeming feature in caring for his son that we're fine ignoring, or Killing Joke where Joker doesn't count yet we list his crimes from there, etc. etc.) so I don't rightly see the difference here, but I'm not gonna start an argument over it. As the original EP-er, I'm just gonna make an entry for Mercer in Price of Freedom and be done with it, my own feelings on it be put aside to avoid the conflict.

[down] Don't really see how it's pertinent but just to clarify, no, that's not what happened. The key was around Mercer's neck the whole time, Jones just killed him that way for lulz.

Edited by Ravok on Nov 14th 2021 at 3:45:55 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#288943: Nov 14th 2021 at 3:41:08 PM

Also, Mercer swallowed the key to the chest and Jones stuck his tentacles in him to get it back.

[up]Oh. I coulda swore that happened. Mandela Effect strikes again!

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 14th 2021 at 3:51:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288944: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:21:53 PM

You know on a reread. I think this guy is worth a shot. The other guy from Wicked Saints. Past ep for reference

Who is King Izak Meleski?

The other leader fightong the ear with Kalayzi.

Izak was a more benevolent leader of Travania in his youth according to his son, Serren. That changed with time as the people viewed him as a weak and incompetent ruler in favour of his son. His ego having taken a hit, he swore to make them pay.

Izak is discovered by Malachiawsz who knows that Izak cares nothing about how the war is making the people suffer (he could try for a peace treaty but refuses). Malachiawsz carefully tempts him that he could become a God and have people worship him as he destroys the Kalyzaniian forces. To this end he leaves Izak with what's probably needed and let's him do the rest. Izak has thousands of his own citizens in this quest bled and experimented on and then killed in order to further the research. Order a huge inverse to those sent to the torture slave salt mines.

In the meantime, he orders Serren to attack the monastery that Nadya grows up as he hearded that the cleric their could pose a threat. Other then Nadya and her friend Anya, the inhabitants are all either killed or taken to slavery where their worked to death.

Anyway always jealous of his son, Izak eventually realise that only the killing of him (Travnia 's greatest blood mage) will empower him to godhood. And so with Malachiawz he plans to kill him and drink his blood in the ultimate ritual....

At least till Malachiawz backstabs him and kills to attain godhood for himself.

Mitigating factors ?

His motivation amounts to his people think he's weak and ineffectual...so I'm a prove them wrong by killing thousands of them which is stupidly petty.

He also resents his son for being a better blood mage then he is so decided to murder him.

Oh yeah and Malachiaws is manipulating him. But the thing is he's not forcing him to do anything. He knew Izak would do this so just gently pushed him in the right manner by playing on his ego. Everything Izak does is his own and he didn't need to but chose too.

Also he has a wife but she's scared of him hurting her and he doesn't interact with her otherwise so....

Heinous standard ?

Pretty bad for just a pawn with no godly or magic abilities. He kills thousands of his own citziens in horrific experiments while murdering Nadya's family. He plans to destroy the Kalyzania forces with his godhood and participates in sending war prisoners to slavery.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#288945: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:24:09 PM

Yes to Meleski but real classy on how we just treated Ravok there guys, great diplomacy.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#288946: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:35:03 PM

Yes to Meleski and Mercer, whom dies in glorious fashion.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#288947: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:44:58 PM

[tup]Meleski

My take on the book thing is pretty much, if it ain't directly related, leave it.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#288948: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:48:01 PM

Sorry Rav.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 14th 2021 at 5:10:25 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#288949: Nov 14th 2021 at 4:58:45 PM

Yes to Meleski

It's all good future, nothing on you, here.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#288950: Nov 14th 2021 at 5:07:12 PM

Yes to Meleski

And on another completely unrelated note, does anyone else feel like the description on the Law & Order page seems... kinda generic, like one of those "a lot of villains are sympathetic but these ones aren't"? It's this:

I know on the MB thread in particular, we like to have some fun with it, and I feel like it can be a bit better - something like this, greatly inspired by the SVU opening (doesn't necessarily need to be exactly this, but the main point is that I think it can use a bit more... I guess pizzaz cause I don't know the right word):

  • In the criminal justice system, these particular offenders are considered especially heinous. In cities around the country, the officials who investigate these vicious felonies must unravel their tangled webs of murder, rape, and violence to bring down these vile criminals. These are their stories.


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