TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288326: Nov 11th 2021 at 8:49:21 AM

Any way to trim that? A 1,700 word+ EP for a single game?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#288327: Nov 11th 2021 at 8:50:19 AM

Magus...SEEMS like a yes, but I still have Made of Evil concerns. "[T]he inner darkness of Adam Warlock given personification" seems the DEFINITION of Made of Evil.

Honestly? Agree. We are more lenient on Made of Evil guys, but only if they shown to be able to challenge their nature. The closest he comes to do this is that he does take over the body of his original self, but it seems more like its treated like Demonic Possesion.

[tdown] Magus

[up] Its Super Robot Wars. Its a crossover series that adapts the plots of many series with many C Ms themselves. The lenght is justified, because the Heinous Standard of a single individual SRW itself is insane.

This is a franchise where Gihren Zabi gets outheinoused.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 11th 2021 at 11:51:55 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288328: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:19:34 AM

[up] We also allow Made of Evil characters if it is only an Informed Attribute I don't see how this is any different.

[tup] Magus

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Nov 11th 2021 at 9:20:02 AM

Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#288329: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:20:26 AM

[up] [up] Additionally, SRW games tend to take 40+ hours long for one route and well over 100 hours for a complete playthrough, so a long effort post is more than warranted.

Chiming in to give a [tup] to Poseidal and a late [tup] to Manhunter!Hannibal after hearing Ravok's argument.

Edited by Pemulis_128 on Nov 11th 2021 at 11:20:40 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#288330: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:23:09 AM

[up][up] But this isn't a Informed Atribute. The plot says "Magus is the evil thoughts of Warlock, so evil that he got sealed to prevent him from doing evil actions".

Dark Danny got cut for the same reason, he is made of the dark thoughts and emotions from someone that wanted to stop feeling dark thoughts.

Watch me destroying my country
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288331: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:27:10 AM

[up] Um that is the definition of an Informed Attribute, we are told that he is but not shown that.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#288332: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:30:03 AM

In DD's case, there is time there to demonstrate he has moral agency issues.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288333: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:30:41 AM

No he doesn't. Which is why we cut him.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288334: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:35:29 AM

I think Magus COULD count, but holding my yes for now.

Can I get a longer (I know) summary of the heinous standard for SRW 30? Dude seems outheinoused.

Who's the head of the Zanscare Empire? He seems he could count. (EDIT: Oh, wait, that's Fonse.)

Edited by ACW on Nov 11th 2021 at 12:37:28 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288335: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:38:21 AM

I admit I'm biased by this being Marvel

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288336: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:38:56 AM

Oh right yeah this is Marvel

Characters constructed from evil can totally be good here.

[up]Yeah didn't you tell me his comic counterpart issues were sanity rather then agency.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 11th 2021 at 9:39:42 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288337: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:41:55 AM

I'd need to double check, it's been a long time. There being several incarnations of the Magus don't help

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#288338: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:45:10 AM

Wasn't the point of the new rules that Made of Evil wasn't neccesarily an issue if we don't get damning evidence that it's an actual 'Problem' For them?

With Dark Danny were told how Vlads evil half Overwhelmed and corrupted Danny.

Bow to the Prototype
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288339: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:45:40 AM

Ah, right, it being Marvel is a point in its favor.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288340: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:50:41 AM

[up][up]Well tbf here were told how Warlock removed the darkest. thoughts inside his head because of being scared of what they would do and they coalsced. Since that goes a bit more than Informed Ability which we currently allow examples undt

Which tbf on it's own would probably an actual issue if you know This wasn't a Marvel work where everything has agency.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 11th 2021 at 9:51:21 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#288341: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:56:28 AM

[tup] to Hannibal and Poseidal. If we ever create SRW Monster page, which quote we should use? This one:

"Oh, so you don't like needless bloodshed, Lt. Jaggar? Well that's too bad. I do enjoy needless bloodshed. Especially from the innocents."

or that one:

"How beautiful is suffering...Oppression and despair do reveal true beauty!"
Embryo, Super Robot Wars V

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288342: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:57:34 AM

Not sure. The first sounds I dunno off...

Hard to explain why but uh?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288343: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:58:27 AM

I'm still not sure Poseidal's heinous enough, compared to, what, 4 or 5 omnicidal groups, as well as Zoltan?

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#288344: Nov 11th 2021 at 9:58:34 AM

Or we can try and search some new quotes.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288345: Nov 11th 2021 at 10:00:24 AM

I don't see an issue with the first quote.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#288346: Nov 11th 2021 at 10:01:20 AM

Not too familiar but if it's like Inuyasha where literally everything is its own being and can choose their path, with splits including the Jewel itself, the Jewel's "evil" half and Naraku, made from the minds of countless demons and a psychopath all willingly accept their nature and refuse any offer of redemption, then I'm cool with staying with my yes.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#288347: Nov 11th 2021 at 10:14:41 AM

Abstain on Poseidal.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#288348: Nov 11th 2021 at 10:40:26 AM

@ACW

So regarding Poseidal and the HS. I should note that the Quaestors have much more resources than him, being like Godlike beings. Zoltan only really tries to destroy the Earth, while Poseidal has destroyed countless worlds in the past as the leader of a Galaxy spanning Empire. In addition Poseidal is complicit enough in the plans of two other villains(Zanscare and the Claw). If he was just helping the Claw you can make the case its not enough to stand out since outside his assimilation plan and killing Elena, the Claw isn't a villain known for gratuitous killpeopleism(to borrow a term from Hearts of Iron fandom), but you also have him being active in furthering Zanscare's own plans, which involve mass genocide and in general are really horrible for the Earth Sphere.

I will also say Poseidal also stands out because we don't really see any indication of the civilizations that were destroyed by the Magister and the Quaestors outside his own(the whole replace everyone in my civilization with clones thing) and the ancient civilization that the Magister's civilization overthrew in the past. However, that civilization was kinda presented as having had it coming and their sole survivor isn't presented in a sympathetic light. So the horror the Quaestors could unleash is a bit dulled as a result.

And the Zanscare Empire's leader is indeed Fonse Kagatie, and he qualifies in the source material. However he dosen't here because he's not only too similar to his canon counterpart to warrent an EP, he develops a genuine friendship with the Claw from Gun X Sword as evident by when he hopes the Claw can pass on in peace if he succeeds and they speak of each other in friendly terms.

And regarding the EP length, SRW has a shitton of story in every game since Alpha. With regards to Gihren being outheinousnessed through, I will say that I can confirm that. I never played SRW classic but Gihren is portrayed in Alpha as a generic conquer-the-world fascist at worst while the Titans are more openly despicable with Jamitov being a more bloodythirsty Earth supremacist(in canon and especially the UC Expanded Universe there is the implication that he was secretly sympathetic to Contolism but his ideas were perverted by Bask) and he also has to compete with Kagatie and Alpha!Zanscare, and thats' not getting into Dogatie and Azrael. In SRW GC we see Gihren doing some of his canon crimes such as planning to genocide the human population and subsequently taking a comparison to Hitler as a compliment before killing Degwin, but the effects of Operation British isn't shown at all and overall he is outheinoused by Poseidal(who there is too close to his canon counterpart), Muge Empire, and the original generation Big Bad, who might be warranting an effortpost based on his SRW GC counterpart(not his OG incarnation in Moon Dwellers through).

@Kazuya

Wouldn't be the first time a CM inspired a MB. I am somewhat aware Darkseid inspired the character of Thanos, who does have some CM incarnations but his two famous and big ones in mainline 616 and MCU are both MBs.

Now assuming that we create a SRW page with whats shaping up to be 8 examples, I'd go with the first quote.

Edited by xie323 on Nov 11th 2021 at 10:49:47 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288349: Nov 11th 2021 at 10:43:23 AM

So basically, Poseidal's destroyed numerous civilizations, and while maybe not omnicidal himself, he still helps with omnicidal characters to help then achieve their goals?

Eh, I'll toss in a cautious yes, but subject to change (I'm not familiar with ANY of the canon works).


Total posts: 326,048
Top