During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
magus
Athena, Poison, Governor's Son and Magus
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
626
RIP Toriyama
Eager Yes to the Magus, great work, bro!
On a slightly more sour note to end the day, though...I do have a likely cut of one my own very recent candidates to present: from Far Cry 6, Admiral Benítez, thanks in total part to in-game notes I had missed at the time of the proposal. Now, in them, she's shown to be considerably worse than even I thought when I made the proposal...a biographer following her around details her history, and reveals that she not only killed her own parents as a display of military fanaticism, but that her bodycount is estimated to be, at the least, over 5,000 at the time of biographer's writing.
The issue, though...1 of the biographer's 5 notes reveals that Benítez has two daughters named after her, and that though she rarely sees them or her husband, the biographer states in the note: "Benítez has two children, Ana "Gorda" Benítez and Ana "Lita" Benítez. With the travel demands of the position, Benítez decided that the children needed a stable upbringing. Her husband would raise the children, and her family's home base would continue to be in the capital. Over the course of my visit, she spoke to her children over a dozen times."
It's the only real mention of her kids in the story and is coming from a secondhand source, buuuut it does seem to indicate she's apparently at least mildly caring for her kids, calling them several times over a few days' period. It could be total "legacy" BS concerns—she named both kids after herself, natch—but there's really nothing to explicitly indicate she doesn't have genuine feelings for her kids, and the actual game proper just never showed that side of her, leaving it for one of the notes.
Methinks she's proooooobably a sad 'cut', myself. Luckily, this was the last set of notes to be read, so no further cuts or changes to current candidates should be forthcoming, regardless what happens with Benítez.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 10th 2021 at 8:55:00 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Current mood: sick of your shit
Magus
626. Bit of a shame, I think the idea of Lilo and Stitch traveling through time and accidentally creating a dark alternate future is actually a decent premise. I could see the TV show doing an episode like that (minus the darker elements of course).
Shit that's an annoying side note. Sad cut to Benítez with that but at least you still got three great ones from it!
Professor Gigachad
Sounds like Benítez is a sad cut, so soon as well.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
"Bit of a shame, I think the idea of Lilo and Stitch traveling through time and accidentally creating a dark alternate future is actually a decent premise. I could see the TV show doing an episode like that (minus the darker elements of course)."
Same tbh.
Professor Gigachad
Yeah when you put it that way that does sound like a good idea.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
to Magnus
Cut Benitez I guess. Shame since she seemed like an easy keeper only to have this side note posted.
On a brighter note, there doesn’t seem to be an issue with the governor’s son. I’ll get to his EP tomorrow
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 11th 2021 at 10:20:48 AM
Cut Benitez.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Benitez. (Good Catch)
Feels good, don't it?
Magus, Governor's son
Bene
to the Governor's Son and Magus. to 626.
Cut Benítez.
Cut Benitez. The fact that she wants her children to have a stable upbringing and that she spoke to them dozens of times over the course of a few days shows that she cares about them.
It's a shame because she sounds easily bad enough to qualify even in settings with high heinous standard like ASOIAF but a redeeming quality is a redeeming quality no matter how we look at it.
EDIT: to the Governor's son and Magus
Edited by WatTambor on Nov 11th 2021 at 11:06:20 PM
Goku Black
Btw the Governor's son "personality" is this.
I had heard of such men. In a city filled with chrome and brass and clanging and hissing, desires became confused.
I focused on the way light moved along the gleaming curves of her calves so that I didn’t have to look into her face.
“I had a choice: let him keep on changing me to suit him, or he could remove the legs and throw me out on the street. Who would believe a legless Chinese whore? I wanted to survive. So I swallowed the pain and let him continue.”
She stood up and removed the rest of her dress and her evening gloves. I took in her chrome torso, slatted around the waist to allow articulation and movement; her sinuous arms, constructed from curved plates sliding over each other like obscene armor; her hands, shaped from delicate metal mesh, with dark steel fingers tipped with jewels where the fingernails would be.
“He spared no expense. Every piece of me is built with the best craftsmanship and attached to my body by the best surgeons—there are many who want to experiment, despite the law, with how the body could be animated by electricity, nerves replaced by wires. They always spoke only to him, as if I was already only a machine.
“Then, one night, he hurt me and I struck back in desperation. He fell like he was made of straw. I realized, suddenly, how much strength I had in my metal arms. I had let him do all this to me, to replace me part by part, mourning my loss all the while without understanding what I had gained. A terrible thing had been done to me, but I could also be terrible.
“I choked him until he fainted, and then I took all the money I could find and left.
Like every other character we upvoted under that has more then a few paragraphs describing what he did and that's it......
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
mir: I believe that is enough to describe the Governor’s son’s personality. It in a couple paragraphs but it’s enough to son as a depraved sexual sadist who gets off forcibly and painfully converting Yan as his personal Sex Slave having mutilated her body to suit his need. It’s enough to describe his personality and his actions specially in this one-shot story.
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 10th 2021 at 11:05:04 PM
Goku Black
But we know nothing about the guy. Events are just being described here?
It's not even like this is the main focus on the story. Its just one part.
to Magnus
Cut Benitez
Edited by miraculous on Nov 11th 2021 at 1:00:09 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
@ Mir: We know enough about the son and his actions definitely stand out in this story even though it’s just one part of The story. Given the looser rules I just thought to EP the son to re-evaluate him to see what other people think whether he’s upvoted or not. I think he does enough within the looser rules but that’s just my opinion.
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 10th 2021 at 11:37:01 PM
Goku Black
But again there isn't anything being described to this guy as a character?
It's only a few paragraphs of what he did and then they move on. We learn nothing about the guy and then just leave.
Like everyone we upvoted had more than this.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
mir: again it does describe the son as a perverted sex fiend with a fetish for machine and threatens to leave Yan out in the streets limbless and defenseless unless she fulfills the son’s sexual favors by becoming her cyborg sex slave, while showing that throughout her ordeal the son was a cruel and abusive man
It'd certainly be pretty difficult to make him sympathetic. I say his nature is expressed as vile enough.
Magus... and honestly, in light of the thread's decision to relax the rules about presuming moral agency, I think it might well be worth revisiting his original comics version. I'm not nearly familiar enough with everything he's been in to be sure, but I feel like he's generally one of Marvel's viler cosmic villains, and I'm assuming the main issue that's historically kept him out has been agency concerns.
Edited by nrjxll on Nov 11th 2021 at 4:37:28 AM
Goku Black
Ugh I actually asked lighty about that one awhile back. And he told me he has like actual mental issues from his mind being not there....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Benitez (damn, it's fucking Norman Osborn again).
Oh, and Magus and a late to 626.
Off to hang myself. Watch and lear-
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.