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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#288176: Nov 10th 2021 at 10:54:37 AM

Yes to Lecktor. Impact is what I care about.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288177: Nov 10th 2021 at 10:58:18 AM

Script!Lecktor I could probably give a yes to.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288178: Nov 10th 2021 at 10:58:25 AM

@Ravok

Well then how about a bit of a compromise on Lecktor that I've been considering:

In the Manhunter second draft screenplay—available here for reading—Lecktor is much the same character. Victim count, details about crimes, dialogue is almost word-for-word the same...except 3 details:

1. He's established to be a cannibal who consumed his victims

2. The scene that Silence took involving showing Clarice the EKG of Lecktor's heartbeat as he mauled a nurse's face with his teeth is here, with Chilton showing Will an EKG of Lecktor's heartbeat as he describes how it never rose as Lecktor attacked the nurse

3. We get actual photographic proof and descriptions of his attack on Will and how much it resembled his other attacks

How about we say that screenplay!Lecktor passes muster with these details to him—since he's otherwise almost the exact same—and vote on that one? Would everyone be more comfortable with that one going up?

Hey, I'd be fine there, but earnestly, I seem to be outvoted regardless. I say that without any hint of issue.

Okay, time for this...

What's the work?

Blood Diamond is a movie by Edward Zwick, set in Sierra Leone, during the Civil War of 1991-2002, with a country torn apart by the battles between the fights between rebels and insurgents...the Revolutionary United Front is the chief insurgent force...in practice, it's a series of despotic warlords leading their own militias...the way the wars are financed? The diamond trade, conflict diamonds with locals enslaved to harvest them. One such slave is Solomon Vandy, a kind and gentle fisherman and loving husband and father...Solomon, or "Solo" is forced into conflict to save his family, when he finds a massive diamon...which draws the attention of unscrupulous Jerk with a Heart of Gold Danny Archer, played by Leo Dicaprio, the prettiest Rhodesian mercenary you'll ever find.....

And our villain? Captain Poison.

Who is Poison?

A warlord and despot of the RUF, Captain Poison is introduced gleefully overseeing atrocities against the local Mende people, declaring that people have been told that by voting, "the future is in your hands." He has young men's hands chopped off, taking their hands to take the future. Poison is a diamond harvester, who sells them off through unscrupulous western businessmen...people are murdered, enslaved, brutalized....when one man finds a diamond and holds onto it, he tries to hide it...

Diamonds are a way to get the hell out of Sierra Leone and Africa, so such things are coveted. Heavily....Poison has the diamond taken and shoots the man. His policy towards any slave with bright ideas. Solo then finds a big diamond, size of a bird's egg, and tries to hide it...but Poison sees it....before he can shoot Solo, the government attacks and Solo buries the diamond safely. He is promptly arrested with Poison by the government...Danny Archer ovrhears Poison accuse Solo of hiding the diamond.

But as they set out...things get get bad. A raid by the RUF releases Poison who reclaims control of his men. The RUF massacres most of those in their wake, overrunning Solo's home of Freetown, with his son Dia taken. His wife and daughters flee in a refugee camp, and Poison manipulates and brainwashes the children into child soldiers to fund his war while taking a creepy liking to Dia...whom he "promotes" as "Captain" under him. The director stating the creepy likeness to grooming was utterly intentional here.

Poison's forces rampage, with anyone in their path killed and mutilated until they find the heroes...Solo attempts to get to Dia, who's been brainwashed and doesn't recognize Solomon as his father....captured, Poison furiously tries to force them to dig up the diamond with one threat...should Solo not? Poison will find his family, kill the refugees, slit his wife's throat and "keep your daughters for myself."

An air raid from Archer's employers, the unscrupulous Colonel Cotzee, however, interrupts this and Solo and Poison face off, with Solo, done withholding back, managing to seize a shovel and get the better of the RUF commander. Poison desperately tries to flee, but an enraged Solomon beats him to death on the spot.

Mitigating issues?

Heinousness is zero issue. The only other contenders? Archer is no saint and not a very nice man. The international bankers behind the diamond trade are barely characterized, and Coatzee maaaay be worth a post, as what he does is pretty nasty...but Poison? Poison is a mass-murdering slaver, creates child soldiers as cannon fodder, is happy to keep children as sex slaves, uses children to massacre innocent people, and his little "we take your hands" jape at the start?

There is one moment of a mitigating issue, just one. During the final encounter with Solomon, Poison leans in to hiss at Solomon "you think I am a devil. B Ut only because I have lived in hell. I want to get out."

His past is not explored, however and TBH...I don't think it matters. Nothing implies Poison lost anyone he loved or had much beyond the hard living on Sierra Leone. Solomon is enslaved, nearly loses his son, sees people die all around him...he's a kind, decent human being. Danny Archer's family died in the fall of Rhodesia, with his parents tortured and murdered. HE's...not a great guy, but a good man deep down. Another man who's been through the civil war is a thoughtful man of peace who helps reform child soldiers.

Poison is not a victim. He's a victimizer. He's an absolute sadist, an implied pedophile, someone who glories in his atrocities and shows no flicker of remorse beyond wanting to escape Sierra Leone so he can enjoy his life more.

Conclusion?

I'm gonna say he's a keeper.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 10th 2021 at 10:59:30 AM

CaptainPinkiePie from Equestria with love Since: Mar, 2019 Relationship Status: Brony
#288179: Nov 10th 2021 at 10:59:26 AM

[tup]Poison

Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288181: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:03:37 AM

[tup]Capatin Poison

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#288182: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:05:09 AM

Eager Yep to Poison, great thinking on him!

I'll give it time and see where the votes fall on Film!Lecktor, if the count is too close I'll do a quickie proposal for his script one.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288184: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:06:25 AM

Coetzee miiight keep if we sae more of what he did. He sells arms to the rebels, then lets the government pay him to take the rebels out. Poison is as bad as it gets, and Coetzee's friendliness is absolutely fake.

Sadly, I don't think there's enough placed on what he does next to Poison.

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#288186: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:10:53 AM

[tup]Poison, very memorable line but not mitigating in the slightest.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#288191: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:18:00 AM

TBH, the difference between film!Lecktor and screenplay!Lecktor is such a technicality that I'm happy saying yes to Lecktor in the film. It's a cpear example of why I'm so frustrated some candidates miss based on the idea of onscreen dramatic levity. In Lecktor's case, the levity is there, even if the victims aren't; the murders aren't just one-offs lines, they're crucial backstory for both of the main characters.

"Yes" to the Baptistes and Poison. I'll do my next Marvel soon—just a bit of patience, been a bit busy with work here.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288192: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:21:35 AM

Can I ask a favour to have someone rewrite this. This entry from Mortal Engines is written so weirdly at times. I'm not sure what's going on at times. Does he destroy the village in the beginning or just look at it getting destroyed?

  • Complete Monster: Thaddeus Valentine is the head of the Guild of Historians and the second-in-command to the mayor of London, Magnus Crome. Introduced observing the mobile city of London devouring a small mining town, it was revealed that prior to the main story, Thaddeus personally murdered the mother of the assassin — and his own daughter — Hester Shaw, and scarred Hester's face in order to gain an Old Technology for his own agenda. When one of the other Historians, Tom Nasworthy, found this out, Thaddeus released the dangerous criminal Shrike and sent him after Hester and Tom. It was revealed that he uses said Old Technology in order to activate a weapon known as MEDUSA that could destroy the Shield Wall that protected the static settlement known as Shan Guo so that he could make it his new hunting ground. When the mayor found out about Thaddeus's plans, Thaddeus murdered him in cold blood. When his plans of destroying the Shield Wall failed, he then orders his henchmen to execute London's control crew and plans to ram London into the wall. His own daughter Katherine called him out on how his only goal was to gain more power.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 10th 2021 at 11:22:18 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#288193: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:21:44 AM

Absolutely yes to Poison, had a gut feeling he count, I never really get the reasons why why he didn't count before when I first saw when he was brought up for the first time.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Nov 10th 2021 at 2:22:58 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#288194: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:23:09 AM

[tup] Posion and I guess both Lektors, since the screenplay one is also a cannibal like the original.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#288195: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:26:24 AM

[tup] Poison.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#288196: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:27:52 AM

[tup] Lektor (in a gadda da vida, baby!) and Poison

It's Spooky Month!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288197: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:46:44 AM

With Lektor getting approved and the conversation just had it's making me think Steve Gardner can count more. It isn't the same situation as we do actually see Lektor but Gardner's actions also have a massive impact, may end up giving him a shot.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288198: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:48:09 AM

Wasn't the issue personality?

Does he have any at all?

Edited by miraculous on Nov 10th 2021 at 11:48:20 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#288199: Nov 10th 2021 at 11:54:34 AM

[tup] Captain Poison.

[tup] Athena

Happy birthday Ravok!

[tup] Hannibal...stuff I never thought that I would say

Watch me destroying my country
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#288200: Nov 10th 2021 at 12:01:49 PM

[up][up]No. We not only never see him. We never hear him or read any of his thoughts. He is basically The Ghost.


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