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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#28777: Aug 8th 2014 at 3:44:15 PM

Here's another example from A future of friendship, a history of hatred.

Complete Monster: Ruinate. He created Equestria to be a Crapsack World because that was his idea of paradise. When the other Sentiox took it away from him, he started destroying their worlds just to spite them, only to realize he enjoyed destruction, and went on a rampage, killing several other Sentiox in the process. And now that he's loose again, he plans on reducing Equestria back to its former state before picking up where he left off.

What do you guys think?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28778: Aug 8th 2014 at 3:45:36 PM

FUCKING PONIES!!!
Ahem [lol]

edited 8th Aug '14 4:19:02 PM by ACW

YamiVizzini Since: Jan, 2001
#28779: Aug 8th 2014 at 4:24:52 PM

The entry could use some more detail, but from what I remember, [tup].

beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#28780: Aug 8th 2014 at 4:39:01 PM

Here's a few things I want to bring up.

Have we considered adding the MCU CM's to the Disney CM page, and if not, yay or nay ?

Also, looks like Rufus Zeno is not a keep because he got 2 [tdown]'s and one [tup]. So I'm gonna go ahead and bring up Torres from Every Witch Way.

Who is she ?

Principal Torres, as she is currently known as is an evil former witch who is slowly gaining her powers, who lived over the centuries under many aliases. She lost her powers as punishment from the Witches Counciel, who she wants revenge on. It turns out she was a former Chosen One, who was destined to lead the witch world, before loosing her powers. At the time of the series, she worked as a principal at the setting's high school, searching for the current Chosen One, to steal their powers, and narrowed it down to two people - Emma, the series protagonist, and Maddie, the resident Alpha Bitch.

What has she done ?

Throughout season one, she turns people into frogs and keeps them in an aquarium, be it them being a threat to her, or for the petty reasons, she also admits to turning their families into frogs to keep them from looking for them. She does plan on turning them back into humans, but only so they can serves in her army and late in the season, she reveals her adopted son is a frog she turned human, but threatens to turn him back if he refused to be her lieutenant. She also becomes convinced Maddie is the chosen one, and decides to manipulate Maddie under her wing and tries to turn her against her mother. She also decides to kill Emma with her new developing powers, and although she fails due to Emma transporting herself, she showed no remorse for when she thought she did, while Maddie suffers guilt for it. She later learns Maddie isn't the Chosen one, and that Emma is still alive, she goes to Emma's house to threaten her and her loved ones. She also learns that another student, Diego also has supernatural powers as well, she initially plans on killing him but learns she'll need him for the ritual to get her powers back. In the season finale, she fakes her death after an initial confrontation, but later abducts Emma's love intrest Daniel during a school dance and threatens to kill him unless Emma and Diego join her ritual. She gets her powers back and attempts to kill their friends in the final showdown, before being destroyed by Emma and Maddie.

'Does she have Redeeming Qualities or an Excuse ?

She is one of Nick's darker villains, but the show is pretty light hearted, but more dramadic and emotional then most Teen Nick shows. She is shown to be willing to kill without remorse. If you are wondering if she's played for laughs, well, it's zig zagged - for the most part she is played seriously but she does have some black comedy moments (when she threatens to kill Daniel by lowering him into quicksand mixed with bubblegum), but lets not forget other CM's have black comedy in them to, like Freddy Chucky, and The Joker. As I mentioned she turns people into frogs for petty reasons and keeps them in an aqaurium, and turns their families to, only out of Pragmatic Villany, and as cliché as it is, in my opinion, being turned into a frog would count as an And I Must Scream fate. And she only wants to turn them back so they can be part of her army. As I mentioned she also has a "son" (former frog) who she threatens to turn back if he refused to not be The Dragon for her. She also mentions she hates children and plans on killing them when she gets her powers back. And death threats aside, her attempted/intended body count in season one was nine people.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28781: Aug 8th 2014 at 7:27:37 PM

I think she might just count

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28782: Aug 8th 2014 at 7:45:01 PM

I would say she counts too, but I kind of wonder what it would be like to be a frog.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#28783: Aug 8th 2014 at 7:51:18 PM

@ ACW, sorry do this, but I made a mistake while responding to you and wrote 2099 Spidey's name as Miguel O'Hare instead of O'Hara. Please just change O'Hare to O'Hara in the Vulture write up, sorry about that, just a brain fart on my account.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#28784: Aug 8th 2014 at 7:53:33 PM

I'm going to vote no on Torres. She doesn't sound heinous enough to me.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28785: Aug 8th 2014 at 8:01:27 PM

She has attempted to kill 9 people though. That's dark, especially for a Nick show. And she also kind of reminds me of the Grand High Witch, since she turned children into mice. Except what's different is that Torres would later try to force her prisoners to became members in her army, pretty much against their will. She also pretty much wants to kill all children, which is pretty heinous in and of itself. And yes, being a frog for the rest of your life is pretty much an And I Must Scream situation. After all, would you be content to eat flies for the rest of your life?

Overall, I see no problem with her counting.

edited 8th Aug '14 8:04:11 PM by AustinDR

SuddenFrost Since: Sep, 2009
#28786: Aug 8th 2014 at 8:28:24 PM

I'd like to request the unlocking of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S4 E25 "Twilight's Kingdom – Part 1" and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S4 E26 "Twilight's Kingdom – Part 2". In order to prevent editors from adding Lord Tirek as a Complete Monster, they can have a comment similar to the one on My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: "Lord Tirek does not count as a Complete Monster according to discussion in the following thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=10#224"

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28787: Aug 8th 2014 at 8:30:45 PM

I don't see why we should unlock it, though.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#28788: Aug 8th 2014 at 8:53:44 PM

This is just speculation but judging from the Comic-Con footage, Film!Ultron may just be like a sentient being, seeing how he says "I got no strings on me" in front of Stark with the rest of the Avengers dead and that he's being written by Whedon. Again, this is speculation.

@28738 As for the SCP Foundation, the one thing to know is that outside the hubs of the website, there is no canon. If you're gonna judge the SC Ps by themselves, they all have to be treated separately, which means for a fluctuating henious standard. Same goes for independent tales. However, if you're gonna read from the story hubs which have their own canon, then they can be judged like with comic books and their continuities.

edited 8th Aug '14 9:01:11 PM by despoa

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28789: Aug 8th 2014 at 8:59:38 PM

For SCP, I'm talking about strictly the website itself

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28790: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:01:31 PM

Yes, I know what the website is. I'm just saying that Scraggle might know a good bit about the website.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#28791: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:03:52 PM

I have a couple candidates but I would rather have Scraggle's opinion on the matter

SuddenFrost Since: Sep, 2009
#28792: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:20:47 PM

(from the previous page) "I don't see why we should unlock it, though."

If this is about the YMMVs for the last two episodes of My Little Pony FiM season 4, we should unlock them so that we can add YMMVs other than Complete Monster — for example, destroying the library and replacing it with a crystal castle has been a Base Breaker.

edited 8th Aug '14 9:21:12 PM by SuddenFrost

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28793: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:22:37 PM

The thing about Grant and Klebb raised a point that I'd honestly never considered before: does narration of villainous deeds by an omniscient narrator count as onscreen or off?

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#28794: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:28:15 PM

If you really want to add something to that page, why don't you ask the Edit Requests for Locked pages?

I don't see why it has to be unlocked so 1000,000 people can add Tirek as a Complete Monster.

Any more thoughts on the Ruinate from A future of friendship? He seems to me like a Generic Doomsday Villain.

SuddenFrost Since: Sep, 2009
#28795: Aug 8th 2014 at 9:49:21 PM

Nobody's going to add Tirek as a Complete Monster if we just add the comment telling people not to add Tirek as a Complete Monster.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28796: Aug 8th 2014 at 10:08:18 PM

So, I'm wondering if we might need to have a conversation about the Marvel Universe's heinous standard. Something happened over in New Avengers that I thought might happen for a while, and it finally did. Specifically, to save Earth-616, Namor pushed the Big Red Button and destroyed Earth-4290001, an alternate Earth that was not only inhabited, but actually much better off than 616 is.

So... where does this leave us? We now have a hero (well, Anti-Hero) with a bigger body count than anyone on the page except probably Lord Mar-Vell and Annihilus. I'm not proposing Namor for CM, just so you know, but I want opinions on if this makes the MU like, say God of War, where we decided that, though not a true monster, the protagonist was the worst person in the setting, thus disqualifying all the villains.

Thoughts?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28797: Aug 8th 2014 at 10:14:01 PM

Thing is, HT...that level of body count is nothing we haven't seen before. Thanos wiped out half of all life everywhere back in the Infinity Gauntlet storyline.

It doesn't change anything, IMO

edited 8th Aug '14 10:15:02 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28798: Aug 8th 2014 at 10:32:24 PM

[up] I think I mostly concur, but I just wanted to hear opinions. For instance, I think you could make a pretty good case that the moral choice might just have been to destroy 616 to preserve 4290001, which was objectively a much better place.

edited 8th Aug '14 10:32:36 PM by HamburgerTime

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#28799: Aug 8th 2014 at 10:43:37 PM

Namor killed millions to save billions. Thanos killed untold numbers to woo a universal entity. I really don't want to derail the discussion. I had to go through two /co/ threads about this.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28800: Aug 8th 2014 at 10:45:58 PM

Eh, concurred. I don't want to re-debate the entire page anyway.


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