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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#286851: Nov 1st 2021 at 1:33:49 PM

[tup]Tuttle

My take on the Joker is, if they don't want to talk about Joker, don't pressure him to do an EP.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#286855: Nov 1st 2021 at 1:53:19 PM

Any difference between Billy Lee and Billy Lee?

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#286856: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:11:15 PM

The only thing different is the last name. Nothing else. Why are you asking that question?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286857: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:26:16 PM

Hey Magnum & Echidna. I'm sure Lighty would love your input on Billy. Would you guys mind weighing in? He worked hard on that effortpost, and it would be nice if you guys were to provide input.

We can discuss the coincidence of two different fictional cult leaders being named "Billy Lee" via PM if you want.

Courtesy Link.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:28:49 AM

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#286858: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:27:50 PM

Very well then. I'll say [tup] yes to Billy Lee.

Edited by Echidna on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:32:12 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#286860: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:30:47 PM

Yes to Billy Lee

Regarding Injustice!Joker, if it helps, i can EP him to let it be sorted out.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#286861: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:32:30 PM

[tup] to Daimen Deboen, the Old Monk, Dracula, Tim Feely, Xor, Dark One, Jakub Boone, Alvin Bledsoe, Michael Myers and Billy Lee Tuttle.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#286862: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:33:30 PM

Actually, I already have an EP ready I will post it now if that is okay.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#286864: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:36:51 PM

Alright as I said I would do.

What is the Work

Injustice (2021) is an Animated Adaptation of the video games series simply called Injustice. It's a world where after a horrible tragedy Superman turns into a tyrant.

Who is The Joker and What Has He Done?

The Joker is the instigator of this tragedy. He got bored of constantly losing to Batman so he decided to go after Superman. The Joker stole a nuke as well as some kryptonite he then murdered Jimmy Olsen and kidnapped Lois Lane.

When Superman showed up Joker sprayed some kryptonite mixed with Scarecrow's fear toxin, killing him to get it as well as killing The Flash with a trap. The toxin made Superman think he was fighting Doomsday when it was actually Lois Lane. Superman flew Lois Lane into space killing her and her unborn child and for extra cruelty, he linked the trigger for the nuke to Lois' heartbeat destroying Metropolis.

The Joker is killed by Superman for everything he has done but The Joker has gotten everything he wants.

Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Before I get to the big one I will quickly mention something. Yeah in this adaptation The Joker doesn't treat Harley as horribly as he usually does and is not shown to be abusive. However, there is no real evidence he cares about her in any way that is not as a pawn.

Now the big one. The Joker is incredibly similar to his original counterpart basically the exact same with the sole exception being that he killed The Flash. However, while The Joker didn't change much a lot of other stuff changed around him. Many characters take very different paths, a bunch of major regime members don't join it, Superman is far less evil, some major events play out differently, many characters die differently and Ra's Al Ghul plays a much larger role than he did in the games and comics.

Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?

Easily he is responsible for over 11 million deaths and not only that but he tricked Superman into killing his wife and unborn child and linked the trigger for the nuke to Lois' heartbeat. Not really much else to say.

Final Verdict?

I would say yes.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#286865: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:37:16 PM

Yes to Billy Lee

Alright, as I said I would, no to Joker.

Here’s the thing - the story does get different later, but while Joker’s around, the movie is a damn near 1 to 1 recreation of the first few comic books - not just for him, but for everyone, down to identical or incredibly similar dialogue from everyone from Batman to even the random scientists who show up in STAR labs (and again, the Flash getting killed is given less than zero weight or meaning - it’s absolutely mind bogglingly stupid how much the movie just doesn’t care). It’s not until he’s gone that small changes begin piling up, and not until about halfway through the movie that the big change finally comes when Ra’s shows up. A big thing here that Ravok brought up is the idea that the “world around him” is different, and if that were the case I’d agree just fine because it’s a fair point - but it’s not the case here, because for as long as Joker’s around, everything plays out just like in the book, again down to the dialogue.

And not only that, but Joker himself doesn’t cause any of the changes - he’s dead before things even begin to change. It’s Ra’s that shows up out of nowhere and truly sets the quickening of the plot in motion, but before that things played out pretty similar to the books even after Joker was already gone. Again, small differences - for instance, Aquaman doesn’t join the Regime - but none of them are caused by the Joker’s actions.

And Novel!Blonsky was brought up as a comparison - but I don’t think it quite hits either. First, the main issue there was heinousness, not a mitigating factor. Second, the change from film to book provides a crucial difference in presentation - we can hear his thoughts. Suddenly, he goes from a soldier who turns himself into a monster out of a lust for power and anger that he lost, to a monster who wants to murder random people on the spot for no reason long before Hulk shows up and becoming Abomination just lets that out. Here, in terms of presentation differences? The Joker can walk and talk, that’s pretty much it.

We take care for a good reason to avoid characters who are just “literally the exact same but with one disqualifying moment gone” because it’s “cheating” - and if such a thing as cheating exists here, this is it. Joker and the movie are adapted damn near 1 to 1 until he’s gone, and the only reason we’re talking about this at all is because of a single line from the prequel books - which, I’d like to point out, technically comes from before the movie even begins to diverge from canon. Overall, we’ve been weary about people who are too similar to their original counterparts in the past - Syndrome, 54’s Napoleon, several song candidates - and I truly do not know how any character could possibly be more similar to their original than Joker is here.

So yeah, that’s where I am. It’s not just Joker being identical - until he’s long gone, it’s not just him being similar, the movie itself is a damn loyal recreation, and there’s no major change in presentation to change how we see him like with Blonsky. If there is such a thing as “cheating”, then this is it.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#286866: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:38:52 PM

Abstain on Joker. As STAR pointed out, while he is easily heinous enough, he is too similar to his game counterpart.

Edited by YobabyColin on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:41:06 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#286867: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:41:19 PM

[tdown] Joker, for the reasons STAR mentioned.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Nov 1st 2021 at 2:41:35 AM

It's Spooky Month!
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#286868: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:41:46 PM

Way I see it, if the original Injustice Joker was still a CM, I'd agree with you STAR. But he isn't. His redeeming quality has been removed, so identical or not, it's still a different version of The Joker that hits every check mark. When we have candidates who qualify in dubs because of a handful of line changes that don't actually change the story from the original, I don't see this as any more "cheating" than what we already allow. [tup] to Joker.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:45:51 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#286869: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:42:25 PM

I'm fine with the Joker.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286870: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:42:54 PM

I've said pretty much all my feelings on why I think Joker passes technically in this thanks to it being an AU, and will simply say 'Yes' to him if only by technicality. Similar actions or not, it's explicitly a different canon and story, one where his redeeming qualities have not presented themselves as being canon to the film's AU. So yeah, I'm good with him personally.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286871: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:43:18 PM

[up][up][up]This. If original joker did count that would be fair to reject hon for being the same. The thing is though we do have plenty of characters are pretty much the same from the original but with the removal of their one mitigating factor. I don't really see a difference between that and this.

[tup]Joker

Edited by miraculous on Nov 1st 2021 at 2:44:06 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#286872: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:43:48 PM

[tup]Animated Injustice!Joker.

IPP Wick Check created.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286873: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:44:16 PM

Abstain on the Joker.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#286874: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:44:32 PM

[tup] to Animated!Joker

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286875: Nov 1st 2021 at 2:44:39 PM

It's just too much of a technicality for me to be happy voting him up. I genuinely don't mind if he goes up or not, but I'm a "no" to Injustice!Joker having a writeup on largely the same basis I'm against giving 1990!Pennywise his own writeup.


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