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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#286826: Nov 1st 2021 at 11:49:24 AM

I honestly would like to see the Injustice movie Joker be EP'd. After all the film does add in additional crime for him, which is killing the Flash, which, even it's never mentioned again afterwards, is still shown onscreen, so it's not exactly an 100% copy of the original game/comic version of the Injustice!Joker.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#286827: Nov 1st 2021 at 11:50:14 AM

[up] Again, if it was given literally any weight whatsoever then sure, I'd call it a meaningful change, but it literally just goes ignored. Literally the only indication that it even happens is that we see Reverse-Flash Drowning His Sorrows.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Nov 1st 2021 at 2:56:34 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286828: Nov 1st 2021 at 11:53:38 AM

We'll have to disagree on this one I think, I've got very little stock or enjoyment in this film/branch of DC as a whole, but we actually do have several instances of characters being exact copies of themselves from canon given entries in other works—the recently discussed Vangers, Madame Blood/Lorraine from Jonah Hex—and while yes it's not necessary to list every adaptation of a similar nature that lands, it's still...totally fine to do so by my metric.

The live action Netflix adaptation of ERASED has Yashiro, who absolutely counts there as much as in the manga. He's very much the same so I don't feel the need to give him a separate discussion, but there's also nothing outright prohibiting me from doing so and putting him an entry on Live-Action TV for his role in the Netflix series.

In a case like this where not only are the crimes the same, but the character doesn't count in the original canon, VS this being a new, entirely fresh canon with major differences in the world around him? I would be fine listing this Joker. I wouldn't be pressed to do so myself, but no, I don't think it sets a "bad precedent" when we have plenty of similar cases already.

Edited by Ravok on Nov 1st 2021 at 12:00:29 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286829: Nov 1st 2021 at 11:53:58 AM

It's not a meaningful new crime, lol, no. There were literal memes about how insultingly underplayed the Flash's death was.

I'm with STAR here.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#286830: Nov 1st 2021 at 11:54:44 AM

Yes to the Overmage - but can you elaborate on how Zaramoth is characterised? What is their personality? What do they want? Just to avoid GDV problems.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#286831: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:00:14 PM

I can't even say the "world around him" has any meaningful change when the world doesn't change until he's already dead.

I think I've said everything I need to say, so if someone else wants to take him, that's your right, but I'm a firm no. There's a difference between listing every version of a character who counts in the source with a unique entry even if they themselves don't change versus using it to get around the fact that the original doesn't keep, and given the absolute uproar that came up when we cut the original both on the day and afterwards, you'll have to forgive me if I find myself feeling like that's what we're doing here.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Nov 1st 2021 at 3:04:55 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286832: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:00:54 PM

I'm not even concerned about the new crime or not. There are still other differences in the work itself, so I think it's fine if he goes up. But if he doesn't, whatever. I already got a Joker anyway [lol]

P.S. Star, if you want one, keep looking. I'm sure there's some keepers we haven't got yet for him.

BTW, FYI, I removed the potholes for Myers and Freddy at Monster Halloween and A Nightmare on Elm Street except for the quote; the caption; and the header.

Also, I merged Freddy's page to include his incarnation in Freddy vs. Jason. Ditto for Jason's page.

Edited by ACW on Nov 1st 2021 at 3:02:30 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286833: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:04:35 PM

Speaking for myself, as I said, I literally don't give two shits about Injustice or its version of Joker, so I at least am not trying to "get around" anything, simply pointing out that yes, we have precedent for cases like this.

By this logic, my own Novelization!Abomination should be cut for being almost identical to the film, when the reason he counts there is that the book is non-canon to the films, the heinous standard never gets as jacked up as later in the movies, and the novel has scenes and details the film doesn't around him. Yet most everyone was fine when that Abomination came up, so I just simply don't see the issue myself with listing this take on Joker. But it's purely out of a "technical" standpoint, I sincerely do not give a damn what happens to the 500th Joker from the dumb movie where Nightwing gets killed by accident from a baton to the temple, lol

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286834: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:05:58 PM

This discussion is getting too confusing. Imma tap out.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 1st 2021 at 3:06:05 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286835: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:10:15 PM

My stance is the character or work deviates significantly from the original, then it can be worth an EP. It's not unheard of.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#286836: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:13:47 PM

That wasn't meant to sound like it was targeting you Rav, and if it did come off that way then I sincerely apologize because that was not my intention. At least with Blonsky, the novelization also gave us a look into his head and showed him in a different light, and as a result he's at least presented differently than in the film, but that's not here. He's just...the exact same. Presentation, dialogue, motive, hell even the DQ feature comes from the comic before the one this is based off of so it never comes up to begin with.

Like I said, I guess you can say I'm handing off my right to the discussion - if someone else wants to EP him, all yours.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Nov 1st 2021 at 3:21:58 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#286837: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:14:13 PM

Yeah, that is true. Wouldn't be opposed to hearing that case out.

Like if there is something that if a deviation of the character or work, I see no opposition there.

Edited by AustinDR on Nov 1st 2021 at 12:21:38 PM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#286838: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:16:13 PM

I mean we've had cases of guys basically being there canon self but without mitigating factors before, the recent Game Keel Lorenz is basically his series counterpart in almost every way except with it being more clear he's no WIE.

The reason for not doing charachters simmular to there OG self is mainly just that it's redundant because they already count in the original, but if they Dont? Well, if OG Pennywise didn't count for some reason, like actually caring for those little spider Spawn, but Tims still did I think it would be fine listing him.

Bow to the Prototype
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286839: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:28:43 PM

Also, y'know what?

Here's one we missed:

What's the work?

''True Detective is an anthology show...the first season features Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey as detectives Marty Hart and Rustin Cohle....set in 2012, the two had a falling out years ago back in 1995, when they investigated a series of ritualistic and gruesome murders in Louisiana....heralded by at the death of a prostitute named Dora Lange. in 2002, a similar murder has occurred. And now it's happening again....and the killer remains at large.

The series blends crime fiction with some...weird happenings, even indications of Lovecraftian/Chambers myth, with references to the King in Yellow and Carcosa...

Now, the murderer is easily heinous enough, the "Creature In the Tall Grass" doesn't keep. He's a monster, but was made into one by constant pain and abuse.

But on the other hand...let's talk the good Reverend Billy Lee Tuttle.

Who is Billy Lee Tuttle?

Sam Tuttle, his father, is the founder of the cult of the Yellow King. It's this cult that Billy Lee inherits. The Tuttles? Louisiana royalty. Sam was a sheriff, Billy Lee is a major Evangelist...but there's a governor, a senator...now, Billy Lee is the leader of the Cult in present times, from 1995-2002, with Sam deceased. The Cult? Engineers human sacrifice with bizarre and brutal rituals in service to the Yellow King.

Billy Lee hides behind religion and evangelism, while pushing for task forces to investigate crimes of an "anti-Christian" nature like the murder of Doris Lange, but in truth, Billy Lee is a driving force behind the nightmarish rituals...chiefly? Mass rape, torture and murder. Women, young women...children.

Put it this way: in 2012, when a video is shown of the cult members gearing up for a ritual, Marty is shown to scream in abject horror and forced to shut it off, with pictures showing Billy Lee's involvement....and this comes from evidence obtained by Rust busting into Tuttle's houses and stealing his private safe's contents, revealing a heaping host of nightmarish home movies of serial murders.

Many of the children abused? Were from his schools as well, with others located...but after the rape and sacrifices of dozens, if not hundreds of kids under his watch? Rust's theft of the tapes was too much for the Cult. Tuttle died of a drug overdose soon after...revealed as the cult having murdered him. By 2012, the cult is mostly defunct, most members dead. With the final remnants gone with the death of Errol, the evidence is used to apprehend some members, though Rust and Marty acknowledge they can't get all of them, who will die naturally....

Marty and Rust repair a friendship, and spend the last moments of the series pondering the world through the stars, with Marty commenting th darkness sure seems to have "a lot more territory."

Rust? "You got it wrong. Once there was only dark. You ask me? The light's winning."

Mitigating issues?

You know...I'm not even sure we need the new rules for this. Sam Tuttle is a posthumous character and given my old comments on film/TV, I don't quite feel comfy proposing him, even with his abuse evidenced in Errol. But Billy Lee? None of his murders are offscreen...Rust steals evidence from his safe and there's photographic and video evidence we see of the sacrifices, the child sex abuse is clear and obvious. Nothing indicates the Tuttle sons were abused by Sam...nothing suggests his other relatives like Edwin were abused, and the level of their involvement remains unknown. They at least helped cover up Billy Lee's activities and Governor/Senator Edwin disavows any connection between Errol and the Tuttle family.

But we have a guy who utilizes his ministry schools to have hundreds of kids raped and murdered, with human sacrifice and sickening rituals. He gleefully participates in this, having inherited leadership until the Cult realizes he's a liability.

There's no real good intent in the rituals, either. And I don't recall any goodness that isn't just Billy Lee's mask. Under it? HE's a sexual sadist, rapist, murderer and deviant without any true care for others.

Conclusion?

I say yes to the Reverend.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 1st 2021 at 12:29:05 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286840: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:36:48 PM

Yes to Tuttle (sure, it was the theft of the tapes that was the problem to the cult, not the actual abuse 🙄).

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286841: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:38:47 PM

Ugh fuck yes to Billy Lee, great work!

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286842: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:41:42 PM

The Cult is literally founded on rape and murder. They only cared about the risk of exposure.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#286844: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:43:23 PM

[tup]Billy.

I'm not exactly opposed to at least giving Injustice!Joker an effort-post. Heck, I effort-posted the Joker from the Batman: The Long Halloween adaptation a while back, and he was put up with no issue.

Why so serious?
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#286845: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:45:46 PM

My argument was never about the new crime, yea I agree The Flash's death is given no weight. My argument is that a bunch of other stuff has changed even if pretty none is related to The Joker, and Ravok is right that we do have a precedent for this kind of stuff. I would be willing to do an EP since I have seen the film and I have it reserved on MB.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286846: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:57:34 PM

Yes to Billy.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286847: Nov 1st 2021 at 12:58:43 PM

Btw for Sailor Moon. Can this line from Wiseman's entry be removed.

"Before he became Death Phantom, he was a depraved mass-murderer in the manga as well."

This is...never mentioned in the anime where he's just mysterious evil guy in robes (its manga exclusive) and his plans are different between mediums and (he well he may still keep their but he would need a new entry especially when the rest only talks about the anime).

[tup]Billy Lee Tuttle

Edited by miraculous on Nov 1st 2021 at 1:00:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#286848: Nov 1st 2021 at 1:03:08 PM

[tup] to Tuttle

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#286850: Nov 1st 2021 at 1:28:56 PM

Yep to Reverend BLT.

I think the issue with Joker here has roughly split this thread into two camps:

Those against listing him feel he's just the same character as in the source material, and that listing him would be cheating.

Those in favour think the work is an explicit AU that is different enough to consider him his own thing, even if he isn't different himself.

I can see both sides, even if I'm more on the latter.

But then we also don't have a separate entry for Tim Curry's "Pennywise", despite him providing the page quote at King's Monster Page.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Nov 1st 2021 at 1:30:21 AM


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