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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286676: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:16:47 PM

Chapelwaite ended two weeks ago, bud!

Lemme vouch for the Old Monk...I can rundown the Demon Souls heinous standard if you need it but Astraea doesn't really do much evil. King Allant wants to end the world as a mercy killing as he views it...but the Old Monk's actions in the Tower of Latria would keep him in Dark Souls, let alone Demon. The Tower of Latria is filled to the brim with horrific tortures and experiments on massive scales.

In Marvel? Dracula's got tons of redeeming qualities. He's legitimately evil as it gets, but he values his word, loved his second wife and their child, loves his later wife Dominique and their son Janos and repeatedly showcases honor and admirable qualities. This is something very, very consistent to him and if no way is he ever a CM

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 31st 2021 at 2:18:12 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286677: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:18:58 PM

It did??

As for Old Monk...so brutal torture unique to him, PLUS he likely knew what the robes would do and was bad beforehand...I'll LEAN yes, but cautiously.

As for Drac...seems kinda like most versions of Kingpin (well, aside from that weird child sex trafficking thing).

Edited by ACW on Oct 31st 2021 at 5:19:33 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286678: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:21:00 PM

[tup]Dracula and the Old Monk.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286679: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:23:44 PM

Yes to Drac and Old Monk.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#286681: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:34:57 PM

Yes to Deboen, the Old Monk, and Dracula.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#286682: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:44:05 PM

[tup] to the Old Monk and Dracula. Happy holloween everyone

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#286683: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:02:48 PM

[tup] to Deboën, the Old Monk and Mutant X Dracula. [tdown] Kaneshiro.

Edited by CloisterTheStupid on Oct 31st 2021 at 10:04:07 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286684: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:06:12 PM

Easy yes to Drac! Same to Old Monk

Alright, with a Happy Halloween to all, to follow up on a post Lighty made awhile back...from the Tim Meyer horror novel Paradise Club, where dozens of people are tricked onto an island and hunted down to be slaughtered, Big Bad Marco Pressley was rightfully proposed and upvoted a few weeks back—here's his right-hand man.

Who is Tim Feely? What has he done?

A raging bully with a hard-on for violence and death, Feely is introduced to the novel viciously stabbing one of the "guests" to the Paradise Club to death with a smile, quickly establishing how awful he is...and Feely goes on to personally and gleefully oversee the unleashing of killers onto the Paradise Club guests, getting countless people slaughtered during "the Skirmish" event while Feely abuses and mistreats all his staff, reacting to slip-ups by immediately firing or threatening them with death.

As the novel goes on and the guests of Paradise Club fight back, Feely gets plenty of POV chapters establishing his sadistic nature, and revealing that he's been the "head of security" for Marco Pressley's enterprises for years, having taken part in his fair share of wholesale massacres when their routine "mass hunts of innocents" would get out of control and needed a firm hand to sweep in and eliminate anyone who could expose Pressley's activities.

Soon enough, protagonists Vanessa and Elliot screw with the Skirmish and killers enough that Marco calls up Feely and casually informs him he's fired for his recent failures and is the next target to be killed. Flying into a spiteful rage and refusing to go down, Feely tries to track down and kill Marco, but winds up grievously attacked and mortally wounded by dangerous Skirmish killer Calvin Orange. As he lays dying, Feely is threatened with worse by Vanessa and Elliot as they find him, but Feely dies after them after offering up Marco's location, demanding they find and kill him.

Mitigating features?

Nah, nothig at all, he's a cruel bully for the whole novel, and his death isn't played for even the remotest sympathy, his desire to kill Marco borne purely out of hatred for being screwed. He hilariously gets a sequence after being fired where his thought process says this about his crimes:

"He wondered if he would feel bad (about all his victims) after the dust settled, if he somehow made it safely off the island...He figured he probably wouldn’t. Fuck them, he thought."

Heinousness?

Marco is the ultimate mastermind, but Feely is the boots-to-the-ground overseer of the Skirmish and all its bloody glory, personally killing victims and containing any possible escapees or leaks so that more mass murders can continue to happen.

Final Verdict?

Keeper! And thanks to Lighty for sharing this one!

Edited by Ravok on Oct 31st 2021 at 3:07:04 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286685: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:09:25 PM

[tup]Feely

Okay that is hilarious. Will I feel bad later. Like Nah I'm just a sociopath.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#286686: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:10:03 PM

Yes to Dracula, Old Monk, and Tim Feely!

My sister gave birth to a baby boy just today!

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286689: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:15:24 PM

Yes to Tim. Congrats, Emperors.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#286690: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:26:54 PM

I have a feeling Feely is a keep.

Also congrats Emps!

It's Spooky Month!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#286692: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:54:25 PM

[tup] to Tim.

Congratulations Emperors

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#286693: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:01:35 PM

Old Monk gives me pause. From the Item Description for "Homing Soul Arrow" (which you can purchase with his Soul upon defeating him):

"Spell from the Demon Old Monk's Soul. Produces a Soul Arrow that tracks its target. The old man was nothing more than a medium for the robe that drives men mad. This spell reflects the old man's nature to yearn for power that was not his."

Or the "Monk's Head Wrappings":

"Head wrappings that were once the golden robe of the wizened usurper of Latria, which took possession of the weary old man. Can only be obtained by being summoned by the wrappings, and then carrying out their wishes. Perhaps they seek a new person to possess. The wearer of these wrappings enjoys a boost to magic power, but at the expense of receiving increased damage from magic."

Emphasis mine.

I won't vote down, but I cannot say yes.

Anyway, yes to Dracula and Damian.

Yes to Jekyll and Hyde - and not only are they closer to the original take than most adaptations, but the film proper has one of the more Book Faithful depictions of Frankenstein's Monster. And it's Van Helsing, that silly Hugh Jackman film that's basically a Spiritual Licensee to Castlevania. Funny to think.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286694: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:02:46 PM

Ah...I think that DID come up before. Unfortunate, yes...I might well need to downvote for that, given the story breadcrumb issue.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#286695: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:20:05 PM

Like, the one thing that makes me think he could count is that the Fextralife wiki says he was depraved even before he was banished from Latria, returning with "horrible demons in tow and new power emanating from his new Golden Robe." That most of the bad stuff he did he did before the Robes took his mind. But there isn't much that's helping me land on this strongly. Maybe there's some stuff in the Remake that clarified some things. Trust me, I'd love for him to count.

I suppose I could compare this to Pontiff Sulyvahn in DSIII (whom I do support the listing of): He's awful, horrible, easily heinous enough, the only question is if he has moral agency. From the Fire Witch Helm item description:

"The witches who lead the Pontiff's Knights were originally ordained as holy knights. It was not long however, before their hearts were swallowed by the Profaned Flame."

Some have theorised Sulyvahn's own heart was swallowed by the flame thanks to lore that says when Sulyvahn found the Profaned Flame, an ambition "took root". Thing is, this is very vague and could easily be a metaphor rather than literal truth. Plenty of Dark Souls baddies use the "evil" or "dark" powers and maintain their sanity and agency - even Nashandra whom is literally born of Darkness itself - and nothing really indicates Sulyvahn is compromised. He could have used the flame to brainwash the Witches himself like he used his rings to corrupt the Outrider Knights.

My point being, Sulyvahn I'm more comfortable with than The Old Monk because the lore is more conducive to him being cognisant than The Old Monk, whom when we finally find is an old withered corpse puppeted by the robes.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286696: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:25:47 PM

Uh, this is hard...especially when he was already an evil prick before he took those robes...

But on the other hand. It is explicit he's a pawn of them now...

Uh, I don't know.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 31st 2021 at 4:26:29 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#286697: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:28:49 PM

Going to say[tdown] to the Old Monk

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#286698: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:43:58 PM

changing [tdown]to Old Dude

I would want to see if there's any other keepers in Demon Souls though

Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 31st 2021 at 4:44:13 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286699: Oct 31st 2021 at 5:22:06 PM

Thing is, I know we've had some keepers who knew something would make them evil.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286700: Oct 31st 2021 at 5:25:01 PM

Gharnef comes to mind for one..

Edited by miraculous on Oct 31st 2021 at 5:25:18 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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