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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#286651: Oct 31st 2021 at 12:20:04 PM

Yes to Blackstone, Drac and all the Freddy-related stuff.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:20:53 PM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#286652: Oct 31st 2021 at 12:20:24 PM

[tup] Blackstone, Dracula and Thanos.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286655: Oct 31st 2021 at 12:52:34 PM

And my other Halloween proposal...

What's the setting?

Meddling Kids is a 2017 horror-comedy novel from Edgar Cantero, homaging old Kid Detective stories—mostly the works of Enid Blyton and Scooby Doo. The story takes a "what if the Kid Detective gang grew up?" and focuses on a Famous Five-esque group of kid detectives known as the Blyton Summer Detective Club, well over a decade when they solved the case of the "Sleepy Lake Monster." After having split up for so long, the gang comes back together in Blyton Falls when they uncover their own repressed memories about the event—the Sleepy Monster Case was no "guy in a monster costume" hoax. There is something horrible beneath Blyton Falls, and someone who wants to raise it.

What has Damian/Daniel/Dunia Deboën done?

Damian Deboën is a mining prospector, a pirate, a sorcerer—a man who achieved immortality and has lived an extremely storied life even before coming to Blyton Falls in the late 1800s and building the Deboën mansion. An eccentric surrounded by rumors in his life, Damian supposedly had a son named Daniel who died in the 1949 fire that consumed part of the mansion—subsequently he was followed by a female descendant named Dunia, who was plagued with harassment because of her family named and changed her last name to Morris.

Shockingly (or not) they're all Damian. Deboën is, most of all, an evil cultist who blends the MOs of Joseph Curwen and Ephraim Waite. Deboën obtained dark knowledge through necromancy, filling up a "personal library" of corpses beneath his mansion, all of which he stole from their tombs so he could freely resurrect and torture their souls for knowledge. When the townsfolk got suspicious, Damian used black magic to first change himself into his "son," then change himself into his "daughter" when "Daniel Deboën" failed to trick anyone.

Deboën has attempted to bring up an apocalyptic Eldritch Abomination known as Thtaggoa slumbering beneath Blyton Falls. The first time, Deboën arrogantly attempted to conduct a five-person ritual on his own, which backfired and resulted in the monstrous, Deep One-esque "wheezers" being awakened, placing Blyton Falls at mortal risk from their attacks for decades. Deboën tried again in what would become the Sleepy Lake Monster case, this time deliberately tricking the Summer Detective Club into coming onto his haunted grounds so he could use them as sacrificial pawns. Deboën was interrupted when the supposed culprit accidentally disturbed his ritual; nevertheless, the gang was traumatized for life, to the point one of them—Peter—commits suicide.

Now as "Dunia", Deboën tries one more time to awaken Thtaggoa by luring the gang back, by means of resurrecting Peter and having his dead body write messages to them in an incredibly fucked mind game that ultimately brings the gang back. Deboën reveals he's behind everything, and the gang asks why he wants to end the world, to which Deboën reveals his fascinatingly complicated motivation:

“Oh. Well, I don’t know. Same reason you want to open a frog or split an atom. I just…fuck, I just want to see it! There’s not that many things I’ve got left to see in this world, you know? Shit, when you’re writing fantasy erotica for a living, you’re really scraping the bottom of the bucket list!”

Ultimately, the gang kick him to the wheezers, where they rip him apart—though Deboën fights his way out, whatever's left of him is (presumably) killed when the Deboën mansion is incinerated by an airstrike.

Any mitigating factors?

Deboën tries to feed all of humanity to an eldritch god because he's bored. I'm gonna be laconic here and say "none."

Conclusion?

As easy a keep as I've ever seen in a Lovecraftian cultist, and a great read too.

Edited by Scraggle on Oct 31st 2021 at 1:53:36 PM

OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#286656: Oct 31st 2021 at 12:58:18 PM

What's the work? Persona 5 is the sixth installment in the Persona series. It is a videogame set in modern day Tokyo. The game is about a gang of teenagers known as the Phantom Thieves of Hearts who "steal the hearts" of corrupted adults.

Who's the character in question? Junya Kaneshiro is the third main villain in the game and is a mafia boss who blackmails high school students for his own personal gain. He made said students smuggle drugs, while also attempting to rape party member Makoto Niijima and threatens her by saying that he will turn her and her sister Sae into being sex slaves.

Redeeming qualities? None. Even after beating his shadow in the metaverse, he acts smug towards the phantom thieves.

Heinous standards? This is where it gets tricky but I think he stands out. The main villains that rival him are Shido and Kamoshida, the former is a corrupt politician and manipulates his own son into murdering others and the latter is a perverted gym teacher. But since Kaneshiro is a yakuza boss, he likely rules over prostitutionn and drug trafficking incidents, and also racketeering and possible murders.

He gets a yes in my eyes.

Edited by OldMcBrother on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:58:50 PM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286657: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:00:01 PM

We've voted down Kaneshiro before on account of failing the standard to the other two listed villains, IIRC.

Also:

he likely rules over prostitutionn and drug trafficking incidents, and also racketeering and possible murders.

We don't qualify what a villain "might possibly" be responsible for. No to Kaneshiro.

Edited by Scraggle on Oct 31st 2021 at 2:00:21 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#286658: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:00:45 PM

[tup] to Deboen, Dracula, the Freddie's, and Thanos.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#286659: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:00:46 PM

The fact that you have to use "Likely" means a lot.

He is a huge Hate Sink, but he does ultimately has a Freudian Excuse of having grown poor and needing to have money and power to keep his self-worth.

Watch me destroying my country
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286660: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:01:11 PM

[tup]Deboën

[tdown]Kaneshiro. It was decided a bit too much was offscreen compared to the other two....unfortunately.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 31st 2021 at 1:01:48 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286661: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:01:52 PM

Evil cultist is evil. Yes there.

I would like more elaboration on the Persona 5 Plot, setting, and a more thorough comparison between the actions of the current candidate with the actions of other villains. Please elaborate.

Edit: Re-reading the effortpost, we care about what is presented within the story, backed up by evidence. No to the persona guy.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 31st 2021 at 4:03:16 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#286662: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:06:15 PM

[tup] Deboën

[tdown] Persona guy

It's Spooky Month!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286663: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:29:09 PM

Yes to Jekyll, Blackstone, Thanos and Deboën. Nay to Persona baddie.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 31st 2021 at 1:29:25 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#286664: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:29:11 PM

I've got an EP in the works, but before I proceed, I feel like I should probably ask: where is the line for “too tasteless?” Like, that seems pretty opinion-based and I'm wondering how much is too much. The guy I'm writing up is a pretty rotten individual, a lot of physical and sexual violence involved (some of it concerning kids). Like, what’s the difference between “wow that character sure is depraved, easy keep!" and “ugh that character sure is depraved, thumbs down for being so depraved.”

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#286665: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:30:03 PM

[up]I think our Line is A Serbian Film. We've had some pretty gross stuff come through here, so I think the EP is worth it

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286666: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:32:42 PM

Basically, the story should at least try and I mean try to be something more than gross dude does gross things.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#286667: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:35:05 PM

Yes to Deboën. No to Kaneshiro.

Edited by YobabyColin on Oct 31st 2021 at 4:35:28 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
jogarz Since: Jun, 2016
#286671: Oct 31st 2021 at 1:49:35 PM

Demon's Souls: The Old Monk

What is the work?

Demon's Souls is 2009 RPG by From Software. In the game, the player controls a lone demon slayer, journeying through the land of Boletaria and its neighboring kingdoms, which have been enveloped in the Colorless Deep Fog. Within the fog lies demons, beings of great power that relentlessly seek to devour the souls of humans. The player must fight through the five engulfed realms- Boletaria, Stonefang, Latria, the Isle of Storms, and the Valley of Defilement- to defeat the demons and put an end to the scourge.

Who is the candidate, and what have they done?

The Old Monk was a high-ranking sorcerer in the (literally) towering kingdom of Latria, land of the learned. While magical experimentation and research were celebrated in Latria, the old man's particular depravity became infamous, and he was banished from the Latria by its ruler, the wise Ivory Queen. Wandering the land with nothing left, the elder came to the neighboring kingdom of Boletaria, recently covered in the Deep Fog. There, he found a strange golden robe that endowed him with unimaginable power. The robe itself was a demon, seeking a wearer with which to further its goals. The Old Monk soon returned to Latria, with a host of demons and the Deep Fog in tow. With this power, the old man began his revenge, pillaging the land, murdering the queen, and imprisoning the remaining nobility within the Prison of Hope.

Within the prison, the survivors are endlessly tormented by inhuman jailors. They are subjected to a variety of tortures to break their bodies and minds, literally squeezing their souls out of them. They are sat on spiked chairs, hung by their ankles, confined in clay pots, shoved in iron maidens, and packed en masse into tiny, squalid cells. Once their souls are drained and their minds are broken, the prisoners willingly leave their cells to venture to the chapel, where they are told they will be "granted redemption" by the supposedly undying Queen.

This is a cruel ruse, however, to give the prisoners a glimmer of hope. Within the chapel lies only a demonic effigy in the queen's likeness, a living fool's idol. If the idol dies, it is resurrected by the old Monk's servants to maintain the illusion. The prisoners arriving in the chapel are eventually taken to the upper city, where an even more cruel fate awaits them. The lucky are enslaved to perform endless spells that sustain the Old Monk's grand experiment. The unlucky majority become fodder of that experiment: a massive, beating heart occupying the central tower. The heart continuously pumps a foul mixture of human remains onto the streets below, creating a swamp of blood and flesh. From this toxic mixture emerges the Monk's "final product": twisted, demonic abominations created from the prisoners' flesh, their faces still in visible states of agony.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

The Old Monk's primary motivations are revenge and a lust for power, which are hardly sympathetic and do nothing to mitigate his villainy. However, there are more questions about his agency. The Golden Robes, in typical demonic fashion, are said to have fueled his darker desires and further twisted his mind. While the exact extent of this is ambiguous, however, what we know indicates that the Robes only magnified the negative traits he already possessed; they didn't create his evil out of whole cloth. We know for fact that the Old Monk willingly took up the Robes, and used them to further his goals, though nobody can say the extent to which his specific crimes were the result of the demon's influence.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

The world of Demon's Souls is undoubtedly a dark one, and there's no shortage of characters who commit abominable acts. However, most have mitigating factors far more significant than the Old Monk's. The demons themselves are simply following their nature and purpose, and are implied to be more animalistic than truly sapient. There are two other notable story examples of humans who were turned into demons. King Allant, who awakened the current scourge of demons, originally hoped to bring prosperity to his kingdom through the use of the "Soul Arts" (powerful magic derived from demons' souls). Maiden Astraea, on the other hand, was overcome with despair after seeing the suffering of the residents of the Valley of Defilement, and became a demon in hopes of using the vast power to alleviate their pain. Both characters are clearly more sympathetic and pitiable than the Old Monk, whose descent into demonhood was driven by selfish ambition and resentment.

Final Verdict

I definitely think the Old Monk counts as complete monster. While it's not clear the extent to which his actions were driven by his demonic Golden Robes, he still lacks any sympathetic qualities. Before he even touched the Robes, he was banished for his evil acts. The Robes merely exacerbated his cruelty and gave him the means by which to exercise it against his former countrymen and women. The scale of torture, human experimentation, and mass murder he perpetuates is nearly mind-boggling, and it's almost impossible to play through Latria and not find him despicable.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#286673: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:04:36 PM

We'd voted down the Old Monk before as we can't be sure to what extent he's only a puppet of the Robe, unfortunately....TBH, I'm kinda leaning yes? I wouldn't mind seeing him up

Yea to all the Freddy stuff and Blackstone, the Drac/Sherlock one, too. Now, for my next...

It's tradition I do Dracula for Halloween, right? So here's the first from a Marvel property! My EP's btw, will be Michael Myers, Van Helsing's final EP, Chapelwaite, this and maybe one other....I'll space 'em out, fear not!

What's the work?

Mutant X is a fun little comic about Havok of the X-men transported into an alternate dimension. Through it...some problems tend to arise...some things are different. Namely here...

Dracula is a bit of an issue.

Who is Dracula?

The wicked Lord of the Vampires, Dracula is the most powerful of the living vampires, who in this timeline successfully turned Ororo Munroe into a vampire....Drac was defeated and locked in his coffin. You might get the sense he gets out. And you'd be right. Dracula proceeds to kill numerous people for their blood. Almost killing Havok, Drac is driven off by the arrival of the cosmic being, the Beyonder...now, here? the Beyonder is actually a villain known as the Goblin Queen, Madelyne Pryor...seeking to ed this universe out of her own pain.

Dracula? Goes all in with the alliance as long as he gets to feed beforehand and ecape after. Dracula proceeds to go on a killing spree. He massacres the White House, slaughters his way through multiple heroes, wipes out the Inhumans, and helps the Beyonder to find the X Men to exterminate them and take Havok, whom the Beyonder needs

But before he can kill Professor X? Storm breaks his control and stakes him from behind...reducing him to ashes.

Mitigating issues?

None. Mutant X is its own thing. We have a serial killing Drac with a huge bodycount and holy shit, does Dracula lack any of his canon redeeming qualities here, allying with a being out to end this reality as long as he gets to feed and kill freely?

conclusion?

Keeper.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 31st 2021 at 2:06:30 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286675: Oct 31st 2021 at 2:13:21 PM

I need more information about the heinous standard for Demon's Souls. Just because other characters don't count as a CM doesn't mean they don't factor into the heinous standard. If, say, someone kills 10 people and has no redeeming qualities, but someone else with redeeming qualities kills, say, 1,000, likely neither would count.

Yes to Drac. Out of curiosity, what are Earth-616 Drac's redeeming qualities? I assume Beyonder's too sympathetic to count here (seems worse than Drac, but also a LOT more powerful)?

Didn't Chapelwaite just end today?

Edited by ACW on Oct 31st 2021 at 5:14:26 AM


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