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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286576: Oct 31st 2021 at 3:55:43 AM

I skimmed it, and I disagree. Stu's a Predecessor Villain? For the franchise, sure, but this isn't like a Hans Gruber or Michael Myers case where they influenced countless villains in a genre.

Horrific crimes? Sure, but even with the rape, it's not like the other Ghostfaces killed painlessly.

I mean, if he gets voted up, so be it, but I'm formally voting [tdown]

Edited by ACW on Oct 31st 2021 at 6:56:22 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#286577: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:23:47 AM

[tup] Avery, Jerry, Slavi, Sawbones

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286578: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:38:55 AM

Sure to Sawbones, on account of having more of a narrative than last caress.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286579: Oct 31st 2021 at 4:53:24 AM

I'll abstain on sawbones.

Don't like voting on music and fanfic examples.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#286580: Oct 31st 2021 at 5:31:26 AM

[tup] Henry Avery.

[tup] Slavi.

[tup] Tokimassa.

[tup] Novel!Jerry Dandridge.

[tup] Hardestadt the Younger.

Abstaining on Sawbones.

Edited by Beast on Oct 31st 2021 at 5:32:18 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#286581: Oct 31st 2021 at 5:59:06 AM

Abstain on Stu. The rape issue is something that has been debated to hell and back as to whether or not they raped Maureen even on this wiki (I personally think they did, but the example was deleted; see an entry for Ambiguous Situation in the history for Scream (1996); I added it, but it was deleted).

If it's a case of body count, I would say no. Stu's personal rapsheet is relatively small compared with other Ghostface killers: 3 or 4 kills (Steve Orth, Casey Becker, Maureen (shared with Billy), Kevin). That puts him at a lower level than Roman (9 kills), Jill (7 or 8 kills), or even Mickey (also 7).

Edited by k410ren on Oct 31st 2021 at 9:00:44 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Berrenta MOD Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#286582: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:41:27 AM

It appears that Gubbler is Knack ban-evading. Be sure to examine their proposals and act accordingly.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#286583: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:49:21 AM

@ACW: Five. He killed two bouncers in the club. And also he turned Ed and Amy.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#286584: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:49:30 AM

Welp, doesn't look like they made any proposals, they just voted on a few things.

Yes to Tokimassa, Jerry Dandridge, and Hardestadt the Younger.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286585: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:50:18 AM

Five murders, plus a rape? Hmm, I'll give a slight yes then.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#286586: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:52:26 AM

Also add on his repeated attempted murder of Charley and the previous murders from centuries prior that are alluded to (I know, Offstage Villainy, but I do feel like it counts for something when he actually thinks back on them).

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#286587: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:53:24 AM

I feel like the term when it comes to novels is Offpage Villainy.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#286588: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:54:37 AM

Eager Yes to Slavi, Tokimassa, Novel!Jerry, Mr. Sawbones and Hardestadt the Younger himself!! Great work guys!

Here's the thing on Stu: No, I don't think you can say "He only has 3 or 4 kills", he's an active party to and encourager of Billy's own crimes and is gleefully helping him get away with them. It's a unique case for a slasher, but I absolutely attribute Billy's kills to Stu as well because they're party to one another, and that puts Stu as either directly committing or directly aiding and enabling 6 murders with even more attempted, with his part of those murders being decidedly more heinous than Billy's own slayings.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:05:58 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#286589: Oct 31st 2021 at 6:56:39 AM

[tup] Henry Avery.

[tup] Slavi.

[tup] Tokimassa.

[tup] Novel!Jerry Dandridge.

[tup] Hardestadt the Younger.

Abstain leaning yes on Sawbones.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#286590: Oct 31st 2021 at 7:15:51 AM

[tup] to Dagon, Hell Prophet, Henry Avery, Slavi, Tokimassa, Jerry Dandridge, Hardestadt the Younger and Dr Sawbones.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286591: Oct 31st 2021 at 7:16:06 AM

Though according to the Scream wiki (FWIW), it was Billy who influenced Stu.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#286593: Oct 31st 2021 at 7:22:30 AM

I'm fine with Sawbones.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#286594: Oct 31st 2021 at 7:57:20 AM

  • Tokyo Dark has these two men who are responsible for warping Reina/Ruby into the twisted spirit she is in the game:
    • Eiichi Higashi was the man directly responsible for turning Reina into the Big Bad. As the president of the sketchy talent agency Omega, Higashi had numerous young girls taken from the streets to be pimped out, sold, and exploited by himself and his clients. One of these girls was Reina, who had an innate talent as singer, and good looks, which he abused by trying to manipulate her and force her to do dirty deeds for potential associates. Whenever Reina resisted or had an emotional breakdown, Higashi would worsen his abuse, yelling and beating her down. This eventually drove Reina to suicide, which he tried to take advantage of for publicity. By the time Reina's spirit came back and killed him, Higashi had done this to dozens of other girls. Higashi may have been a mere human, but he was far viler than any supernatural horror.
    • Shinji "Tokimassa" Umezawa was the leader of the second Kamenkai cult and the other man who warped Reina into becoming who she is. A madman who despised humanity for their sins, Tokimassa created the Kamenkai cult in the Suicide Forest and indoctrinated Reina and her family into it. Seeking to reach the land of the gods, Tokimassa eventually carried out a ritual mass Murder-Suicide, killing him and most of his followers, after carving a symbol into Reina to use her blood, forcing her to watch. Tokimassa's actions ultimately helped unleash the Dark upon humanity, threatening to destroy them all, an outcome that Tokimassa actively relished and desired. Like Higashi, Tokimassa was a mere man who proved himself worse than the spirits.

Since the Higashi write up wasn’t written by me, I didn’t alter it here.

Edited by MasterN on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:58:13 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#286595: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:16:02 AM

And now for my Halloween post.

I'm sure many of you are aware of Van Helsing, a 2004 Hugh Jackman film that tries to reboot the classic Universal monsters into an action Steampunk setting. The main film follows Gabriel Van Helsing, a monster hunter working under the Knights of the Holy Order to...hunt monsters.

Anyways, there was an animated short prequel to go with the film called Van Helsing: The London Assignment, wherein Van Helsing and his sidekick Friar Carl are sent to investigate a series of murders committed in Victorian England. Which leads us to Jekyll and Hyde.

Who is Jekyll/Hyde ? What does he do ?

Portrayed here as a an elderly royal doctor by day, and a supernatural hulking brute at night, Jekyll and Hyde's killing spree is heavily implied to be this world's Jack the Ripper murders, with a bit of a twist. Jekyll himself is Queen Victoria's private Doctor, and has developed an obsessives crush on the Queen after seeing her at her coronation decades ago. Taking his stalker tendencies to their natural extreme, Jekyll creates a serum that allows himself to turn into Hyde, and other supernatural experiments that apparently give him demon minions.

As Hyde, he would routinely murder women in the slums and take their life force, and as Jekyll would use it to make the elderly Queen youthful and amnesiac. Jekyll's plan is to take the now young and clueless Victoria as his own wife, manipulating and grooming her in his Hellish hideout, convincing her that her adult and elderly life was a delusion. Van Helsing and Carl reach London and lure Hyde out right as he murders another victim. Chasing and fighting Hyde throughout London, they eventually find his hideout and his plans for Victoria. Since the "treatments" work for one night Jekyll and Hyde would continue to kill to collect more souls for Victoria's youth.

Jekyll arrives to steal Victoria away, setting his lair on fire as he tries to escape with Victoria on the Golden Jubilee balloon, with Van Helsing in pursuit. Jekyll reverts to Hyde to fight Van Helsing, eventually crashing the balloon into Tower Bridge. Van Helsing and Hyde continue their fight, but Hyde manages to escape in time for Van Helsing to save Victoria. With Victoria restored, the short ends with Jekyll fleeing to France with Van Helsing in pursuit.

As the original movie shows, Van Helsing tracked him down to Paris, where he faces Hyde a final time, leading Hyde and Jekyll to fall to his death.

Mitigating Qualities ?

So when it comes to Jekyll and Hyde, they are often portrayed as being a split personality with Jekyll representing good, while Hyde represents evil. This is flatly not the case on this take of the character. Both Jekyll and Hyde are shown as evil here, with Jekyll being a creep grooming an adolescent and the mastermind behind the murders; while Hyde is, if anything just a frontman carrying out his crimes. The two are not portrayed as separate beings or split personalities, with Jekyll being 100% in control of Hyde, be it his transformations or his actions. There's no struggle between good and evil here, no Hyde forcing Jekyll to do anything he doesn't want to, just frail evil guy, and hulking evil guy.

There is the matter of his feelings for Victoria. On one hand, he's an old creep trying to make Victoria youthful and ignorant so that he can groom and gaslight her teenage form. Just about everything in context shows his feelings for her are possessive, manipulative and selfish. He wants to doll her up and make her his wife, messing with her memories in doing so. On the other hand, there's a bit where he saves her life as Hyde, shielding her body with his own from burning debris...though considering said debris has no way of actually harming Hyde, I'd hardly call this a selfless act that would usually disqualify him; especially since the context is still wanting to keep her as his bride.

As for the heinousness, his only major competition is Dracula and Moreau; I'd say the resource thing applies here as Dracula has far more power and followers, and Moreau is a mad scientist conducting cruel experiments. On Jekyll's end, he's got several murders as well as soul harvesting, mostly consisting of young women. According to the main film, Hyde also killed children, but even with that being Offscreen Villainy, I'd say the whole "Grooming a Teenager to be his wife" adds a bit of a niche there.

Edited by Beast on Oct 31st 2021 at 8:16:37 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#286596: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:19:18 AM

[tup]Jekyll/Hyde

Fun fact this is actually closer to the original novel than most adaptations. In the original, Jekyll enjoyed becoming Hyde as it let him experience his darkest desires. It's only later it became a split good and evil exclusive personality thing.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 31st 2021 at 8:20:27 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#286597: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:21:05 AM

Sure to Jekyll/Hyde, assuming he was in fact only shielding her from debris for selfish purposes.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#286598: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:29:57 AM

[up][up] I knew that one. It's one of my favorite fun facts in horror.

Edited by Beast on Oct 31st 2021 at 8:30:26 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#286599: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:32:35 AM

[up] I was gonna point that out myself. [tup] Jekyll & Hyde.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#286600: Oct 31st 2021 at 8:35:26 AM

[tup] Jekyll/Hyde is this the first time that both of them counted?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!

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