During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
43: Yeah, like, besides the ones I have, and the ones you mentioned, there's also Ordered to Die, Fed to the Beast, and Cold-Blooded Torture.
I'm keeping The Hedonist, but...
- Volume 4: Strategem, by Tanaka Yoshiki: Kaiser August II von Goldenbaum, aka "The Bloodletter", is remembered as one of the most evil and nightmarish of his family's Dynasty. Rising to power after a life of hedonism, August took hundreds of concubines and tortured them, flaying them alive to mock his mother before ordering her suicide once he had murdered his own brothers. Initiating a reign of torture and despotic slaughter that killed millions, August would have his victims tortured, driven to insanity, and fed to his hornhead dogs, and ordering their entire families killed, even infants.
Edited by ACW on Oct 30th 2021 at 5:03:42 AM
In light of this discussion about Offscreen Villainy, here's my relitigation proposal.
What is the work?
Precious is a film adaptation of the novel Push following a poor teenager, the titular Precious, who is trying to overcome the Hell that is her personal life through alternative school in New York.
Who is the candidate? What has he/she done?
Carl Kenwood Jones is a drug-dealing asshat who's married to some offscreen lady while also keeping an extra-marital relationship with Mary Lee Jones, his second "mistress" of sorts. Mary is madly in love with Carl and thinks he can do no wrong, not even caring that Carl has another wife and family. One unfortunate day, Carl began to molest the 3-year-old Precious, his daughter with Mary. When Mary expressed reluctance at this, Carl silences her and keeps at it. By the time Claireece "Precious" Jones turned 16, Carl had impregnated her twice... over the span of a few years. When the second pregnancy is discovered, she's forced to attend an alternative school to continue her education. By the present-day, Carl eventually perishes from AIDS, presumably from sleeping around unfaithfully too goddamn much.
None.
Redeeming or mitigating factors?
In regards to the usual stuff, none at all. Yes, he's married, but we have every indication that there's no love for either family.
Now... Carl was previously brought up and cut
due never actually appearing in the book. With these new considerations in mind, this should no longer be an issue. His actions inform a lot of Precious's character, the conflict in the plot, and her mother's feelings toward her and her grandchildren. Also, it's a book. I don't blame the author for devoting only so many words to the guy, but there's still enough to establish his character, that of a heartless adulterer and rapist who's clearly more concerned with satisfying his lust for sex and money, and his influence on the story. Besides, in the movie, Carl actually shows up in a traumatic flashback — portrayed by Rodney "Bear" Jackson — and even speaks in sickening fashion, however briefly.
Heinousness?
Raped his initially infant and then adolescent daughter multiple times throughout years while abusing his wife and implicitly raping her as well. You can also make the argument he's clearly aware of how incest potentially endangers his grandchildren since his first child with Precious has Down's Syndrome and yet kept up the act. Now, Mary in Push abuses and molests Precious as well, so he may not pass there since she's the most visible antagonist. In the movie, however, that's been excised, so Carl clears that standard; the sheer depravity to his actions I feel is enough.
Final verdict?
Really, the only question is if ya'll want a writeup for the book, movie, or a hybrid.
Edited by erazor0707 on Oct 30th 2021 at 4:09:56 AM
Yes to Carl
And while I didn't get around to finishing that damn book (because wow is it hard to read), Carl actually appears in it too - flashbacks and dreams show his actions very early on - soooooo the book version probably shouldn't have been cut.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 30th 2021 at 5:17:20 AM
Yeah, the first time I had to close the book because I was genuinely on the verge of throwing up was a whole flashback where she essentially pulls a Lie Back and Think of England while he talks about marrying her in the middle of raping her (this is on page 27). It's as awful as it sounds.
To be frank, he shouldn't have been cut - whoever said in the entry that he doesn't appear was just straight up wrong
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 30th 2021 at 5:25:01 AM
I would like to suggest Frank Canton (Sam Waterston) from Heaven's Gate (1980).
What has he done?
Canton is the head of the Wyoming Stock Growers Association, who in his first scene, reveals his intentions to kill 125 immigrants, claiming them to be anarchists, with the approval of the President of the United States.
He ambushes and murders the train station master when he tries to warn the town that he is coming, and has his men rape Ella Watson (who is one of the names on his death list). When his enforcer Nathan D. Champion discovers this and kills the one rapist who survived, Canton shows no concern over the man's death and executes a captured immigrant when Champion asks him if he has ever killed anyone. Shortly afterwards, Canton and his men then attack Champion's cabin and set it on fire (with Canton personally shooting Champion in the head after his men repeatedly shoot him).
In a battle with the immigrants, Canton arrives with the cavalry to arrest the Association members, and when James Averill points out that he's only rescuing them, Canton threatens to shoot him. After the battle, Canton ambushes Averill, Ella and John Bridges, the remaining survivors of the battle, killing both Ella and Bridges before he is killed by Averill himself.
Mitigating factors
Canton only actually kills two people himself (Champion and an unnamed prisoner), but nearly every other murder in the film (as well as Ella's rape) were ordered by him. He also doesn't seem to care about the lives of his own men, including when one is shot in the head right in front of him in his own camp. Considering his plan is to kill 125 immigrants as well, Canton seems to not care about anyone's lives.
Conclusion
I'd say include him.
to Carl and Canton
How's this:
- Ghost Recon Wildlands DLC "Fallen Ghost": The mercenary group, Los Extranjeros, took over Bolivia after the collapse of the Santa Blanca Cartel and prove themselves to be amongst the most monstrous enemies the Ghosts have ever faced. While its leader Colonel Juan Ignacio Merlo is absent throughout most of the DLC, his three lieutenants in particular really stand out:
- Major Luis Rocha, El Espectro, runs the Western Precinct in Bolivia where he subjects the populace in that area to slave labor to rebuild cocaine production. Rocha would kidnap these people's loved ones to force them to work themselves to death while also killing some of his own workers and nailing their corpses in the fields as "extra motivation". When one village didn't meet Rocha's expectations, he orders his soldiers lure the villagers into one building for them to slaughter.
- Captain Dante Cruzar, El Diablo, runs the Northern Precinct of Bolivia where he carries out killing sprees on the Christian Population already killing hundreds of innocent people, before stacking their corpses onto a massive pile with some of his victims being burned alive. When the Ghosts try to dismantle his hold on the Northern Precinct, Cruzar responds by initiating a massacre at a village, killing all the villagers there, while mocking their belief in god's protection.
- Captain Tomas Ortega, "El Oso", runs the Eastern Precinct of Bolivia where he establishes an arena there where he has the populace there fight each other to the death for his amusement. Ortega would also kidnap innocent civilians and use them as target practice for his fighters to kill and would even kill his own soldiers if they don't meet his standards as warriors. When the Ghost arrive in his Precinct, Ortega lures them to his area where he uses his prisoners as disposable fodder against the Ghosts before trying to kill them himself.
They would go under El Sueno given that El Sueno appears before Los Extranjeros and was the Big Bad of the main game.
I'll get to Clements a little later today
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 29th 2021 at 11:34:01 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

Maybe dice The Hedonist, make his name Fat Bastard and "The Bloodletter" The Caligula?
Also I can see that on the potholes... for three pages he's pretty nasty, to the point I joked with Lighty his crimes are so horrifying he may as well be a Halloween post.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2021 at 8:50:49 AM