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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28576: Aug 5th 2014 at 9:59:55 AM

Rufus Zeno and Principal Torres[tdown]

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#28577: Aug 5th 2014 at 10:01:28 AM

[up][up][up]I think four seperate murders would rise just above minimum heinousness, but two of them are cited as "accidents", so she probably regretted it anyway.

I'm gonna have to say [tdown] on Rufus as well. It just sounds like too much generic villainy.

edited 5th Aug '14 10:04:39 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28578: Aug 5th 2014 at 10:03:06 AM

Law And Order Monsters: Permission to cut these 2 (1st isn't detailed; second may be posthumous)? If permission granted, I'll cut and request the swap Friday morning?

  • Matt Bergstrom from season 9's "Agony", a sadistic serial killer who tortured and killed at least six women in New York, and probably more in Texas and Washington State. Based on Ted Bundy. And the true Monster of the Week: a woman with a serious case of the Green-Eyed Monster, who had her brother brutally and sadistically torture her boyfriend's ex-husband. The brother pathetically states he meant to make it look like a psycho did it, and Abbie's quip is spot on: "Guess what - a psycho did do it".
  • Larry Moore aka The Woodsman from season 9's "Signature" would use his torture cellar to terrorize and torture his victims through every conceivable means, which include hanging, burning, maiming, raping and dry drowning them. He meticulously record the sessions, and constantly plays the tapes on a loop to torment current and future captives, and occasionally abduct more than one woman at once so he could have a captive audience and so one victim can listen to another being tortured.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28579: Aug 5th 2014 at 10:03:38 AM

The Losers is interesting. The movie and comic are very different, and in the comic, there's a twist on Max: he's actually a pair of identical twins. Max wants to create a world where American rules over all...when the President opposes his/their insanity, Max decides to nuke Washington DC, so I kinda doubt his care for his nation.

He verges into Knight Templar but might make the cut.

edited 5th Aug '14 10:07:12 AM by Lightysnake

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#28580: Aug 5th 2014 at 10:22:20 AM

RE the Lokis:

I'd cut the Earths Mightiest Heroes one. Besides his rather pathetic end, I think the show definitely presents Zemo and Red Skull as more heinous, and they are on a lower power level. The Kree and the Skrulls also seem to be worse IMO and they are on about the same power level.

RE the Old Lok of the comics, I'm confused about this. So, from googling, it sounds like throughout the Journey Into Mystery storyline, the Old Loki exists as a facet of Young Loki (who is heroic) and is rejected by him, but takes him over at the end of the story. In the next story (I think this is the Agent of Asgard stuff?) the Young Loki is still kind of heroic, despite the end of the previous arc. Now I see from the page that Old Loki is his future, and I'm not clear on this given the previous arc.

In any case, assuming that Old Loki is equivalent to Loki prior to the Kid Loki stuff, I'd still thin he'd be a cut because (as with the cartoon) you have a character who is a bad guy, but just isn't nearly as bad as other characters on roughly the same power level. Like I could be wrong, but I'd consider Norman Osborne to be a worse person than Loki. Ditto Mephisto.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
rexpensive Since: Feb, 2014
#28581: Aug 5th 2014 at 10:41:55 AM

616 Loki was not portrayed as woobish in the past, but he always had a sort of Freudian excuse. Plus he has done good things from time to time and I believe he is currently reformed. He repented, dies, was re-incarnated, blah blah, the exact details are unimportant as he is very clearly not a CM.

beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#28582: Aug 5th 2014 at 11:50:35 AM

To answer the question on Rufus Zeno's attempted body count, well, Rufus doesn't have an intended kill count so to say, but he does threaten and attempt to kill people to get what he wants. Again in season one finale, he attempted to kill the Sibuna group (which in season one, consisted of six students) with poisonous insects, even attempts to stick their queen up one of the student's ears. Also in season two, he holds death threats over Vera and intended to kill Trudy when he abducted her. So at very least his attempted kill count was eight.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28583: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:06:04 PM

And these are kids/teens Rufus is trying to kill, right? Not knowing the show, I'm inclined to give a [tup]
BTW, for the Law and Order stuff, I'm interpreting silence as an okay tongue

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#28584: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:12:49 PM

Since it seems to have gotten lost in the conversation, big [tup] for Hamdo

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#28585: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:18:01 PM

For Law and Order, I'm looking through past discussions to see if those two were addressed.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28586: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:27:05 PM

I don't care about cutting Matt Bergstrom, but keep Larry Moore ACW. Being posthumous doesn't keep him from being this trope.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#28587: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:29:04 PM

Checked the page history of Monster.Law And Order. Matt Bergstrom was added without consulting the thread, so he probably can be cut.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28588: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:38:00 PM

[up]What about the "true monster of the week"?
[up][up]I'm not sure if we seem him in flashbacks though; the ep credits don't even have him.

edited 5th Aug '14 12:38:33 PM by ACW

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#28589: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:41:48 PM

The "true monster of the week" was also added without discussion and can be cut.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28590: Aug 5th 2014 at 12:55:36 PM

[up]And...done. Now, Woodsman. Have there been other monsters where we see their actions/the aftermath but not the monster itself?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28592: Aug 5th 2014 at 1:10:08 PM

Well then...Unless someone gives me a good reason to keep him...

[nja]Although, for those who know the show, the Nightmare Fuel page leads to another possible candidate: William Lewis (and I better stop there or I'll end up driving myself crazy thinking who counts [lol] Let me give y'all some advice: Do NOT go to a crime show's wikia or the Nightmare Fuel Page or you'll think of like several dozen potential candidates tongue).

edited 5th Aug '14 3:47:35 PM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28593: Aug 5th 2014 at 3:53:01 PM

[up] Lewis has been brought up before but I haven't seen all his episodes. What's most interesting about him, I think, is that a Freudian Excuse it set up, then subverted for him: he was molested as a child... which only made him want to grow up to be rapist himself, so he could have the same power his abuser had over him.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28594: Aug 5th 2014 at 4:23:00 PM

[up]That's fascinating...and definitely makes him a candidate.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#28595: Aug 5th 2014 at 4:35:16 PM

[up]Not necessarily. One could also make the case that being victimized screwed up his worldview so much that qualifying him is difficult. That's certainly what happened with Justified's Quarles, who became a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer (in addition to a member of the Detroit Mob) after his father pimped him out so he could by heroin. I'm not familiar with the character in question, but it's certainly something I could see being played for sympathy (of disqualifying him even if it isn't).

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#28596: Aug 5th 2014 at 5:22:43 PM

[up] He's certainly screwed up.

There's also a bit more to what happened with him.

After his babysitter molested him his father found out and then beat and raped her, apparently in front of him, and took him out for ice cream. He apparently looks back on that as one of the best days of his life.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#28597: Aug 5th 2014 at 5:52:09 PM

For what it's worth, I finally saw Guardians of the Galaxy today, and I'm undecided on Ronan. He passes the heinousness standard fairly easily, but I'm inclined to agree that we shouldn't be dismissing his claim of avenging his father and grandfather out of hand.

edited 5th Aug '14 5:52:38 PM by nrjxll

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28598: Aug 5th 2014 at 5:52:37 PM

[up][up] That seems to imply his father, though evidently a pretty bad man himself, cared about him. Did it go the other way?

edited 5th Aug '14 5:52:46 PM by HamburgerTime

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#28599: Aug 5th 2014 at 6:02:47 PM

[up] No idea, haven't seen the majority of the episodes with him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28600: Aug 5th 2014 at 6:20:20 PM

NJ:

Personally I'm not dismissing it. I have an explanation for why I don't believe it's a redeeming quality.


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