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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#285701: Oct 27th 2021 at 2:16:27 PM

[tup]BBM

Lets hope HGS isn’t a trainwreck like we all thought.

Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 27th 2021 at 2:17:10 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#285702: Oct 27th 2021 at 2:35:14 PM

[tup] Whateley, Evil Ash and BBM

Eh, I don't feel comfortable upvoting a MLP character.

Yeah... I was actually going to propose that same Evil Ash quote, that's why I had to include it in his effortpost. Anyway, job's done.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 27th 2021 at 6:52:21 AM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#285703: Oct 27th 2021 at 2:52:14 PM

[tup] for the Red Demon, Whateley, Chrysalis (tentative), Evil Ash, and Big Boss Man.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#285705: Oct 27th 2021 at 2:57:03 PM

Yes to STAR's final Evil Dead baddies and Furious!Evil Ash, solid work to all! Scraggle will bring it home with the final couple whenever he's able and then we'll be about cleaned out in comics.

Speaking of comics, gonna put me down as handling the...bizarre crossover Batman vs Bigby! A Wolf in Gotham for the sheer absurdity that is "Fables meets Batman" [lol]

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#285707: Oct 27th 2021 at 3:10:48 PM

High Guardian Spice

Cring1 Since: Sep, 2021
#285708: Oct 27th 2021 at 3:11:54 PM

In a fit of nostalgia, I have reread the lore of Dungeon Siege and I think there is some interesting material there.

The Work

Dungeon Siege is an Action RPG in which you can personalize your character choosing among four classes and also build a team to explore the continent of Aranna, facing many different foes along the way. It has everything you would expect from a game of this kind, including prophecies (although with a twist) and our beloved dark lords and wizards. Which brings us to the two candidates, both from the second installment and its expansion Broken World.

The Candidates

Those two candidates are entwined from a certain point on, but they can still be treated as two entities on their own: Zaramoth the Unmaker and the Cinbri Overmage.

Zaramoth was an Utgard giant who rose to power after the suspect death of Emperor Veransk III, who was suspected to have been led to suicide by Zaramoth (his appointed successor) through possession. After opening a portal to an unknown dimension, Zaramoth gained the help of six powerful Cinbri wizards and channeled the River of Souls, the main source of magic in the continent, under his and their control. He also had the unsanctioned use of magic punished with death.

Zaramoth's dominion grew along with his cruelty: he had his fortress, known as Zaramoth's Horn, built with numerous torture chambers, and he crushed every attempt at rebellion. He met his defeat when he was faced with an army led by the young mage Azunai, whose shield impacted with Zaramoth's sword, causing an overflow of magic known as the First Cataclysm, which shattered Zaramoth's soul.

Through the shards of Zaramoth's soul, the Overmage managed to unite his soul with that of his lord. However, he had foolishly thought he could work on the portal by himself, while actually shutting it down by accident. Looking for a way to reopen it and gain access again to his native dimension, the Overmage had to recreate an impact of that magnitude. In order to do so, he concocted a plan that would bring war and destruction to the whole continent.

To give himself and his fellow Cinbris a place to wait, he lured a Dwarven expedition into the buried Cinbri city and sealed them in the caves, turning them into slaves. He then started manipulating Valdis, a human prince, with dreams that made him think to be Zaramoth reborn. Corrupted by the Overmage, Valdis became a warlord on the wake of Zaramoth, plunging the continent into a war.

During the game, the protagonist (a descendant of Azunai) has to rebuild the legendary shield while fighting against Valdis's army. Just before the final battle, Valdis strikes his swords against the shield, causing a Second Cataclysm that furthers the Overmage's plan. And what does the Overmage do? He reveals he has manipulated Valdis the whole time before disappearing and leaving the prince to die at the hand of the heroes.

In Broken World, the Overmage tries to complete his plan by tricking Dryads into handing him their magic and wizards into exposing themselves to unstable magic, which turns them into rogues. To "distract" the continent and gain time, he releases the Familiar Surgeons, an ancient race of monsters who tear their victims apart and painfully reassemble them into bloodthirsty minions. He also turns Mordens (Valdis's faithful race of warriors) into ravagers using his own blood.

Finally, the Overmage completes his fusion with Zaramoth and the two foes of Aranna become one before facing the heroes for the final battle.

Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse

Zaramoth appears to have none, as he's motivated only by conquest. The Overmage wants to make up for his handling of the portal, but it surely doesn't justify bringing chaos to a whole continent. He's not too different from Glorificus.

Heinousness Standard

Zaramoth is more in the background but his dark influence is still felt in Aranna. The Overmage is the driving force of evil and easily surpasses Valdis, who at least was being manipulated by someone much more powerful. He also operates on a much wider scale than the Archmage and the four understudies.

Final Verdict

I think they are both keepers.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#285709: Oct 27th 2021 at 3:16:15 PM

Yes to Zaramoth and The Overmage.

Edited by YobabyColin on Oct 27th 2021 at 6:16:28 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#285710: Oct 27th 2021 at 4:22:39 PM

[tup] Zaramoth the Unmaker and the Cinbri Overmage.

Watch me destroying my country
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#285711: Oct 27th 2021 at 4:37:35 PM

By the way, almost forgot to mention the three images I used for evidence for Comic!Chrysalis could make for good CM pics.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#285712: Oct 27th 2021 at 4:49:59 PM

[tup] to the Faceless Man image, Doctor Whateley, Big Boss Man, and the Red Demon image. The Cinbri Overmage also sounds like a keep, but does Zaramoth the Unmaker avert the Generic Doomsday Villain tropes? From the sounds of the effort post, Zaramoth's actions seem to be only posthumous and his soul shards sound like a Macguffin. Does he have any moments to expand his character like dialogue?

The Evil Ash quote sounds better than the current one on the page.

As for Chrysalis, I went over the mentioned story arcs in the effort post to see for myself and I'm leaning on a [tdown] to her. Her draining the love of other creatures isn't explicitly stated to kill creatures, as love isn't equivalent to souls in this franchise. In every other context, it just leaves them weakened and when she does drain the love of the cat creatures, it's never explicitly stated that she killed them. Without any corpses or other confirmation of a massacre, it places Chrysalis' victims under Uncertain Doom moreso than explicit murder. The most explicit it got was the image cited in the effort post, in which we never know if the other creatures met a similar fate. We don't even know what she does to the creature she's holding, whether she killed it or what (the "blood" on the panel could really be anything because the Changeling's have a "slime" aesthetic in the comic). Granted, it likely wasn't good, but without any confirmation, I'd say it leans more into Fridge Horror with its implications.

Also, the victimized creatures are called "the Cute Citizens of Wuvy-Dovey Land ", in which they were pretty much written to be so saccharine and adorable, that they're a parody of how sugar-sweet MLP was in its past generations. They were pretty much written to be so sickly sweet, that the audience doesn't feel much sympathy or horror when they get attacked, outside of that one incident that was featured in the aforementioned image. In fact, their abuse is kind of Played for Laughs because the cats remain blissfully unaware that Chrysalis is an enemy and still try extending love to her, comically juxtaposing with Chrysalis' viciousness. And in another non-serious instance, Chrysalis gets so sick of the CMC's constant talking, that she asks one of her guards to bring her some antacid, with the guard bringing in a cat to drain, in which they still remain so joyously cheerful, despite everything going in. Combined with the lack of confirmed kills, all of these satirical elements kind of undermine the brevity of her heinousness.

As for her other crimes, there really isn't any confirmation that she was going to kill the CMC (children), only saying that "something bad" might happen. At worst, it just seems that she was going to drain their love, which doesn't seem to kill anything. Never Say "Die" is in full effect in this comic and when she faces off against Twilight, she just says things like "you'll be much more compliant with a black heart" and "say goodbye to your life as you know it". All of this language is non-explicit and, again, she only seems interested in draining her love. As for the time she throws one of her Changelings into the lava, we don't get any confirmation that he was killed either. When thrown into the volcano, the Changeling shouts "Eeee! Hot! Hot! Hot!" (no agonizing scream of death) and it's left ambiguous as to whether he was just injured or killed (Chrysalis' implied False Reassurance "What? He was Fine... Probably" leaves his fate more ambiguous, since "fine" could mean a number of non-fatal things like "without injury").

From her rapsheet, Chrysalis' actions are heavily reliant on Fridge Horror and, if heavily implied deaths are considered, she only has two (the cat-creature that she "something" to in front of the CMC and the changeling she threw in the lava), which isn't enough to make her pass the heinousness standard for me. Since I only went through a few issues though, I'm willing to have my mind changed if counterarguments are brought up.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#285713: Oct 27th 2021 at 4:58:28 PM

I thought this could come up I am not really agreeing with the idea that her actions are Fridge Horror as all of those stuff to me seems like reaching because of that fact we aren't literally given the word kill at every corner, though that is my opinion.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#285714: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:00:46 PM

This really sounds like yet another attempted candidate whose villainy really just amounts to sapping happiness and fun from people, which is ultimately reversed and I'm far more inclined to take Unknown's reading of the character than acting like this is some R-rated work where people are mind raped into shattered shells.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#285715: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:02:16 PM

[up][up] A comic doesn't have to say "kill" every single time, but when she attacks the village of cats, we just see the Changelings drain their love, with no corpse or confirmation of their fate given. Even the manner that the Changelings take love is explicitly shown, in most contexts, that it doesn't kill their victims, only weaken them, which further muddles the interpretation that Chrysalis murdered all of the cats. If it had solid evidence that a massacre took place, I'd be inclined to upvote, but from what I've read, I didn't see any of that, so I'm afraid that I still think Chrysalis doesn't make the heinousness standard.

Edited by DrUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 5:04:54 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#285716: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:06:39 PM

Wait I don't remember ever saying that she killed them I only said she drained the life out of them and likely killed them.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#285717: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:08:22 PM

Given a sugar bowl like MLP…I’d need explicit confirmation of death. Saying no

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#285718: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:09:27 PM

Given the age group it's aimed at I'm going to say it's a stretch to assume death's happening. This shit should really be spelled out, MLP or that pre schooler villain who was using magic to make people sad or something can't have every baddy who preys on positive energy or the like be treated like they're shattering someone's psyche, that's jacking up what's onscreen and very much generic villainy.

Y'know what? I am weighing on for the sake of maintaining a very good precedent we have: no.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:09:58 PM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#285719: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:12:59 PM

Yeah, no to the Pony villain.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#285720: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:13:38 PM

[up][up][up][up] I apologize, but I remain unconvinced as well. Chrysalis in the comics never says that she's going to take anyone's life energy. She only says that she's going to devour someone's love, which isn't treated as the same thing as someone's soul in both the show and the comic. For instance, in Chrysalis' starring comic, she's shown to drain the love of a pony and yet aside from being visibly tired, he's shown to still be alive and capable of flying into the skies in despair. With this in mind, I don't think that stealing love really kills anybody and undercuts Chrysalis' heinousness.

Edited by DrUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 5:13:45 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#285721: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:14:37 PM

Okay I will accept if she is rejected I don't care that much what happens but I do have another possible argument to give.

Chrysalis explicitly tells the CMC's at one point that she no longer needs them and that NO she's NOT letting them go. Also, even if she didn't kill the cats or ponies she trained, we do get to see in the comics how horrible the effects are, and how they shrivel up afterward. Even if she didn't kill the cats, she clearly sucked them dry until they were shrivelled up and weak, took over their land, and kept them as a food source. The scene where she threatens the CMC's is obviously is intended to very heavily implied that she's going to kill them. They obviously can't say it because of the demographic, but it's very obvious what she's implying. Also, she clearly left everyone in Equestria including her allies behind to be destroyed by the Umbra and rubbed it in Twilight's face which does raise her attempted body count.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#285722: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:19:15 PM

[up] Again, these are just implications of attempted murder towards the CMC and nothing truly tangible to inflate her heinousness. As for abandoning everyone to the destructive Umbrum, it's shown that she didn't want to release them at all. She was just manipulated into acting as an enforcer for the real Big Bad, King Sombra, and when she learns about the plan to release the Umbrum, she tries convincing Sombra to not do so, pragmatically pointing out that they would be too destructive, even for her. She relents when Sombra threatens to turn her into a statue, so her taunting and abandoning everyone is more of a cowardly move than her knowingly contributing to the release of the Umbrum. With this in mind, I wouldn't really consider it a part of Chrysalis' rapsheet, so I still don't think she's heinous enough.

Edited by DrUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 5:20:25 AM

ATricksterArtist Back from the grave. from CH 57 (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Back from the grave.
#285723: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:28:00 PM

Hmm...if that's so, I'm switching my vote to a [tdown].

How's your day been?
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#285724: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:29:12 PM

While she initially did not know about the Umbrum being freed, she only objects because if Equestria is destroyed she won't be able to feed on the ponies, which is entirely Pragmatic Villainy. She still makes it clear she has no qualms with everyone dying otherwise, and she even needlessly taunts her allies and Twilight about how they will all be destroyed before abandoning them just to be a jerk. Leaving Equestria out of cowardice is one thing, but making it clear she's only concerned for herself and going out of her way to taunt her own allies before abandoning them all and stopping on the way out to taunt Twilight that everything will be destroyed is just pointless dog kicking.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#285725: Oct 27th 2021 at 5:30:51 PM

Switching to a no with Unknown's input.

Sorry, in a setting like MLP I don't exactly see it as conducive to this item in general to begin with, and Unknown raises good points.

Yes to the Dungeon Siege duo.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 27th 2021 at 8:34:23 AM


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