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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#284802: Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:15:09 AM

[tup] Red Skull and Ytitnedion (I read that as "Noid Entity" backwards at first and was picturing some kind of eldritch pizza mascot).

Moroaica Since: Aug, 2017
#284803: Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:22:47 AM

What is the Work

A Tale Dark & Grimm is a series about two siblings, Hansel and Gretel, who run away from home after their parents cut off their heads and sewed them back on. They encounter danger and magical phenomena on their journey to find a new home. The show is based on a book and adapts several Grimm fairy tales.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

The Warlock, introduced as the Handsome Young Man, appears in episodes 4 through 6. He first appears as a charming young man who is gathering supplies for an orphanage. He charms Gretel and she gets a crush on him.

Gretel later visits him in the town hall where he help fix a broken toy of hers with his magical golden thread, and tells her to visit his house for a party.

When Gretel goes to visit his house the rain itself tells her to turn around to avoid danger. When she goes to his house, which looks quite Macabre, she sees several doves trapped in cages, and the narrator tells the audience the Young Man is a murderer.

Gretel meets a hag, who she notices has shackles on her ankles. When Gretel tries to take them off the hag breaks down crying, saying nobody has been nice to her before. She is the man’s mother and he has been ripping out the souls of girls to fuel his magic thread, and has been doing this for a century. She tries to hide Gretel when her son comes back, with a new victim. The Warlock hypnotizes the girl, shoves his arm down her throat and rips out her soul, which is in the form of the dove. He puts the Dove into a cage and begins to smirk at it. He looks around the house, wondering if Gretel showed up, but thankfully his mother knocks down one of his potions, causing him to leave the house to get more wolfsbane.

Gretel makes it out of the house, and talks with all the Doves who tell her their names, and Gretal promises to get the townsfolk to remember. However she accidentally left a handprint in the house (She only has 4 fingers on one of her hands due to cutting off her pinky). The Warlock realizes that Gretel was in his house.

The next day Gretel looks out the window and sees the Warlock letting a bird land on his finger, before turning directly towards her and making a nightmare face. Gretel thinks of leaving, but before she remembers all the Warlock’s victims and goes back. She runs into the Warlock who told her that it was a good thing she didn’t leave in the woods because nobody would be able to hear her scream.

Gretel tries to get the townsfolk to remember all those missing girls to no avail, and finds out that the Warlock has been messing with everyone’s memories. He made someone think he defeated a troll, and two different women think they are married to him. The Warlock then controls everyone’s mind to think Gretel is a threat and the entire town prepares to rip Gretel apart. However Gretel says all the names of the missing girls, which brings back everyone’s memories. The town grabs the Warlock and then throws him in a cauldron of boiling oil and snakes as that is the only way to kill a warlock. Thankfully his death returns all his victims to normal so they can live a normal life

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

None. He treats his mother like a slave, putting her in shackles. She claims to have taught him everything he knew but it was his choice to use it for evil, and it’s clear his mother has been subservient to him for a long time.

He is only nice to Gretel to get her to come to his house so he could steal her soul to fuel his magic and once he realizes she knows what he’s up to he wastes no time needlessly terrorizing her for kicks before trying to get other people to take care of her for him.

His death was horrific but after everything he did nobody felt sorry for him, not even the All-Loving Hero Gretel who watches the whole thing and is stated to have felt not much at all.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

As far as other characters go the only other characters that potentially surpasses him is Ms. Baker, introduced in the first episode, where she tried to eat Hansel and Gretel. She also ate her own child and going by the number of shoes in her closet has potentially hundreds of victims (Ms Baker won’t count as a CM because she was mostly a comedic character and also when Hansel sees her in a Self-Inflicted Hell, she is genuinely apologetic)

But ripping out the souls of young girls to fuel one's magic, intending to keep them in cages forever and erasing all memories their friends and family had of them, getting their family to see him as a hero, and doing this for over a century, stands out as being uniquely sick and twisted compared to cooking and eating them, even if the Warlock has a lower body count.

Final Verdict?

Boil him in oil

Edited by Moroaica on Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:30:13 PM

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#284805: Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:36:58 AM

[tup] Ytitnedion, Red Skull, and Warlock

Edited by Mediawatcher on Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:37:33 PM

The-Scarecrow Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#284806: Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:55:28 AM

[tup] to Warlock.

And a weak [tup] to Red Skull. My "problem" is less about him and more on if he needs a separate writeup, but considering the change in his endgame, I think he is distinct enough from his sacred timeline version. Ironic, both "What If?" keepers are voiced Ross Marquand.

Edited by The-Scarecrow on Oct 22nd 2021 at 11:56:37 PM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#284807: Oct 22nd 2021 at 12:58:50 AM

[tup] Ultron, Zach, Szilagyi, Cherdenko, Skull, Ytitnedion and Warlock

HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#284808: Oct 22nd 2021 at 1:32:24 AM

I hate to be a downer so late, but Dean and Missy Armitage do greet Rose very affectionately, and they aren't ever seen betraying her or glossing over Jeremy's death. Are we just assuming that they don't love each other or their children?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#284809: Oct 22nd 2021 at 2:08:58 AM

Yes to Scraggle's and the Warlock.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#284811: Oct 22nd 2021 at 2:40:47 AM

[tup] for Ytitnedion [tup]for the Handsome Young Man. This story doesn't sound like Hansel and Gretel at all. There are lose adaptions and then there’s this. wink

So, for "What If...?" Skull: It's been a while since I watched the episode, but did we actually learn what he wanted to do with the champion he summoned? I can't really remember.

If he actually said that he wanted to use it to wipe out the allied nations he gets an [tup]. But if we just assume that this is what he was planning do to I’m switching to [tdown].

If he gets upvoted I don’t mind him getting his own entry. I feel he’s different enough from mainline Red Skull thanks to the different final plan (Tentacle monster instead of bombs).

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#284812: Oct 22nd 2021 at 3:18:18 AM

[tup]Ytitnedion and the Warlock

Huh warlock guy is voiced by David Henrie and Justin Russo from wizard of wavelry place. Talk about a weird choice.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 22nd 2021 at 3:19:23 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Vyn Since: Oct, 2021
#284813: Oct 22nd 2021 at 3:51:48 AM

[tup] Ytitendion and I’ll upvote the warlock after watching it for myself. Cause it sounds weird.

He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#284814: Oct 22nd 2021 at 4:48:08 AM

Yea to Warlock.

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#284815: Oct 22nd 2021 at 4:51:13 AM

@Highfalutin Quelea

They both do that while they're maintaining their facade of friendliness in front of Chris. A CM can show affection and in this case it's a case of Alternate Character Interpretation which isn't a mitigating factor because it isn't a clear case of Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#284816: Oct 22nd 2021 at 5:17:35 AM

Yes to Ytitendon and Warlock.

Edited by YobabyColin on Oct 22nd 2021 at 8:17:56 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#284817: Oct 22nd 2021 at 5:29:13 AM

Yea to Ytinedion and warlock

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#284818: Oct 22nd 2021 at 6:07:10 AM

Yes to Ytitendon and Warlock. I'm not repeating arguments we already gave on Dean and Missy because someone feels like asking it again later.

HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#284819: Oct 22nd 2021 at 6:14:38 AM

Alright, 43110. No need for that tone.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#284820: Oct 22nd 2021 at 6:36:34 AM

It's just that the discussion was slightly contentious and you're not the first person to raise that argument (in fact, the previous one to do so was me), so to come slightly out of nowhere with an already raised argument in such an odd time is a bit odd. No harm done overall, but the argument was raised.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#284821: Oct 22nd 2021 at 6:38:20 AM

All I want taken out of this is to not assume the most pressing mitigating factor(s) wouldn't have been brought up without reading the conversation... it's like when I posted Dolan and someone came in a month later to ask if he really had standards about trafficking kids when reading the EP would have told the person that was the most concerning factor with him, it's not fair to make people have to restate their points on whims.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#284822: Oct 22nd 2021 at 6:58:09 AM

The Get Out tree (thanks for looking it over 43):

  • Get Out (2017): The Armitage family is a pack of despicable bigots and are all devoted members of the Order of the Coagula, but several of them stand out as particularly vile even in comparison to the rest of the depraved cult:
    • Rose Armitage is a high-ranking member of the sinister Order of the Coagula, and is in charge of procuring the cult's victims, luring them through false relationships. Once acquiring a victim, they are psychologically tortured, culminating in their minds being overwritten via brain transfer. A sliver of the original inhabitant is condemned to the "Sunken Place", wherein they are fully aware of their surroundings, but are powerless to do anything about it. Initially posing as Chris Washington's girlfriend, Rose assists her family with detaining Chris before casually browsing the internet for more victims. Even as she bled out, she still desired to hurt Chris, playing the victim card to frame Chris for attempted murder when a police car approached. A cold-hearted sociopath who doesn't bat an eye even at the death of her family, Rose enjoyed manipulating others.
    • Roman Armitage, the family's grandfather, is the source of all the misery that the Order of the Coagula is responsible for. A track and field athlete who lost against legendary black athlete Jesse Owens in the 1936 Olympics, Roman nursed the subsequent grudge for decades and let it transform into a form of loathsome racism that convinced him white people were owed the so-called "advantages" of a black body. Subsequently, Roman devised the Coagula procedure, conditioned his entire family into a cult to auction off their method to potential buyers, then transferred his mind into the family's groundskeeper. Roman spends almost the entire movie inconspicuously running laps in the Armitage family's backyard, with the happy knowledge his procedure is dooming countless black men and women to be trapped within their own bodies within the "Sunken Place", helplessly Forced to Watch every moment as Roman's white clients steal their lives and bodies.
    • Dean Armitage proudly follows his father's example leading the Order of the Coagula. After his wife Missy traps young blacks in the Sunken Place, Dean transplants the minds of wealthy white clients into the younger bodies, having performed the surgery countless times over the decades. Hosting auctions to sell his "products", Dean also trains his evil son Jeremy to learn and perform the disgusting procedure.
    • Missy Armitage is the wife of Dean and happily in on every plot to sell innocent black people to the cult of the Coagula members so they might have their brains carved up and sent to the sunken place. The hypnotist of the group, Missy forces them to relive the worst times of their life, using her hypnosis to confine all of them to the "Sunken Place" where they will be trapped forever.

Edited by ACW on Oct 22nd 2021 at 9:59:39 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#284824: Oct 22nd 2021 at 7:02:38 AM

Searched it up again, the discussion was just one page after. Sorry, mate, this thread is a maze.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#284825: Oct 22nd 2021 at 7:29:14 AM

It's okay, thank you for looking.


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