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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28426: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:22:50 PM

I didn't then? Shows my memory. Well, as of now Id support him

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28427: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:24:59 PM

I think I'd lean toward a "yes," too. His worst deed is technically an accident, but he shows no regrets, saying that as long as he lives and the pirates die, it's a win in his book.

edited 1st Aug '14 9:25:07 PM by HamburgerTime

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#28428: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:25:57 PM

Alright. Given the policy change since his last discussion, I motion to reopen debate on Spandam.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28429: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:28:25 PM

I'm totally neutral on reopening. I was pretty sure we took it into account, but I could be wrong.

AnewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#28430: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:08:31 PM

IIRC, Spandam was cut because people (mainly Footsteps) deemed him one of the smallest potatoes villains in the series and that his worst actions were the results of his stupidity rather than his malice. I personally think he ought to count, but I might need a reminder of what terrible things he actually did in his arc to see how they stack up against the other monsters of the series.

edited 1st Aug '14 10:08:56 PM by AnewMan

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#28431: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:10:43 PM

Ok, so very quickly: Spandam.

Who is he? Spandam is the Big Bad of the Enies Lobby arc and the head of Cipher Pol Number Nine, or CP 9, the blackest of the World Government's black ops teams. He inherited the position from his father, and, much like Charloss, has no actual power of his own. He relies on his station and influence to bully people into getting his way.

What does he do?

Prior to the start of the series, Spandam successfully petitioned the World Government to allow him to open investigations into the use of forbidden ancient superweapons, ostensibly to combat the rise of piracy. However, he really only wanted the weapons so that he could use them himself to take over the world. Upon finding out that Puffing Tom held the blueprints to one of these weapons, Pluton, he attempted to strongarm him into surrendering the plans. When that didn't work, he hijacked ships built by Tom's apprentice Cutty Flam (aka Franky) and staged a false flag attack on a government vessel, framing Tom. When Franky tried to physically stop the train bringing Tom to his execution, Spandam gleefully ordered the engineers to keep going and laughed while running Franky over.

When he reappears in Ennies Lobby... fuck it, it's 1 AM here and you all know the drill by now, why am I even writing this? Unnecessary sadistic cruelty to Robin, including bragging about his father's responsibility for everything that's gone wrong in her life, laughing at her tears, and beating her to a bloody pulp while she's handcuffed and defenseless. Total disregard for his subordinates. Hides behind the World Government's authority. Lies through his teeth about what he actually has permission and authority to do. Triggers an illegitimately-acquired buster call with no consideration for the fact that all of his men will die in the process.

Redeeming Qualities

Absolutely none.

Does he count?

His treatment of Robin is the main reason why he keeps being brought up to begin with. Mix Charloss's ego with Hody's baseless spite and you've got a pretty good idea of his personality. The only question is heinousness, and while killing or framing / executing innocents to serve your goals is fairly standard villainy, the lengths he goes to, the pointless knife-twisting involved in the acts, and the use of the Buster Call push him over the line as far as I'm concerned. Tentative [tup].

edited 1st Aug '14 10:11:50 PM by KyleJacobs

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#28432: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:14:21 PM

It would be helpful if you mentioned everything his cruelty entailed. Everything he actually directly DID.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28433: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:16:23 PM

[up][up] Starting the Buster Call was the above-mentioned deed he did out of stupidity, but in my opinion the fact that he's totally okay with it, because it'll kill the heroes faster even if all his own men die, makes him culpable and obliterates whatever comedic potential the scene had.

[up] Mostly beating and dragging her while she's tied up while gloating that his father killed everyone she ever loved and now he's going to do the same to her new family, IIRC. Even Lucci, the strongest guy under Spandam's command and the most evil after him, thought that was too much.

edited 1st Aug '14 10:17:40 PM by HamburgerTime

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#28434: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:40:35 PM

For reference: Lucci, the guy whose idea of "End a hostage situation" involves "end the hostages," thought that was too far.

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#28435: Aug 2nd 2014 at 12:03:00 AM

[tup] For Spandam. Even if his biggest deeds were done through arrogance or stupidity, he doesn't regret them. Not only that, his treatment of Puffer Tom and Robin show him to be a sadistic weakling. Give him a Devil Fruit and/or actual fighting skills...he'd be TERRIFYING to go up against give the sadism he displayed.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#28437: Aug 2nd 2014 at 12:34:53 AM

Additional Spandam clarification: When he says he's perfectly OK with letting everyone on Enies Lobby die in the buster call, it's explicitly so that his career will be furthered rather than any sense of pirate-killing duty.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#28438: Aug 2nd 2014 at 1:17:45 AM

Solid [tup] for Chytrine. I'll abstain on GotG until I've seen the film.

Can someone do a write-up for grandmother Lois from Paranormal Activity? We voted to keep her.

From this post I've cut Nightmare House, Nosfera, Noughs & Crosses, and Orphan Black. Here's a rewrite for Les Kidman:

  • Mindmistress: Les Kidman is a pedophile and serial killer who rapes and kills little girls. After murdering three children, he's hired by his wealthy employer Cromwell Lyons (a friend of Kidman's late father) to kill his mentally handicapped granddaughter Lorelei, whom he considers a weak link in his family dynasty. Kidman stabs Lorelei's dog to death, but is thankfully stopped just in time by Lorelei's father from harming her. When Kidman is released from prison 20 years later, he immediately returns to his old ways to suit his depraved appetites. When the superheroine Mindmistress arrives to stop him after he kills his latest victim, he tries to beat her to death with a crowbar.

More cuts/keeps.


Monster Island Buddies

  • Complete Monster: Gojira, who wants to annihilate everyone on Monster Island, verbally abuses his own son, and at one point, was willing to use a Space-Time Pair of Ducks that would kill him off along with his other kids, Biollante and Space Godzilla.

It's a partly comedic web video series roughly akin to I'm a Marvel... And I'm a DC. Note that Gojira is apparently a different character from Godzilla (his son). He has a Pet the Dog moment according to his character page, and his We Can Rule Together offer to his son seems genuine. Cut.


PeanutButterGamer

  • Complete Monster: PBG puts the Complete Monster label on EESDESESESR (err, the player's character) in MySims Agents, who smashes trucks, steals parts from random machines, and essentially organ harvested a friendly robot without his consent.

Misuse. He's a video game reviewer who calls his Sims character a CM through Video Game Cruelty Potential, so cut.


Phi-Brain: Puzzle of God

  • Complete Monster: Herbert Muller. In his initial appearance, he tricked a kindergarten teacher to lead a bunch of little children into seemingly innocent puzzles, which he remade to be deadly, even removing vital information so as to render them unsolvable, just to hope this level of fear will consume Kaito and his friends and get them killed. He has absolutely no problem with sacrificing little children to get his opponents. He is also said to be the "dark face" of P.O.G., implying that all the members we've seen until this point were the better side of the organization. One of them wanted to destroy a city if his puzzle wasn't solved. Muller is apparently worse.
    • In later seasons we see how committed he is to trying to kill Kaito and how much of a monster he can be. However on the same token he proves completely ineffectual to the point of being a Butt-Monkey. In Season 2 he obtains an Orpheus Ring...two in fact and in Season 3 he gains ANOTHER 2, having one Ring on each limb. Even so, Kaito pretty much breezes past his trickery and tries to make peace with him. Even after he rejects the Rings and their influence he still tries to kill Kaito and be a Jerkass. Unfortunately by that point he's pretty much just a joke to the point that his final attempt to take out the group was essentially played for laughs.

TV Rulez brought him up on page 950, and the thread was leaning to keep him then. The second bullet (which was added later) doesn't prove too promising however. It's downright impossible to qualify for a character if they effectively become a walking joke. It sounds a lot like that racist senator played by Robert De Niro in Machete, who's introduced unambiguously crossing the Moral Event Horizon by executing a Mexican family, then eventually becomes a joke character (that, and Torrez is even worse while played completely straight).


Project Sylpheed

Similarly, she came up a few times and we were leaning to keep. However, she seems to be motivated mainly by revenge for her father's death. From this link:

The ADAN Freedom Alliance had a reason to start the war. Terra had basically bombarded Margas' rebellious planet into a wasted ruin and than covered it all up. The Terrans also killed Daniel Egan in this assault, who was a key protester against the government. This motivated his daughter Doris Egan to build the Freedom Alliance and wage war in the name of justice.

She does seem to descend into She Who Fights Monsters, but even in her dying moments she screams for her father, so it seems she did love him.


Queen and Country

  • Complete Monster: Ahtam Zahidov of Private Wars. He starts the book by raping and then torturing and killing a pro-western leader in Uzbekistan. Even after she tells him what he wants to know, he has her tortured even worse.

He also came up before, but I say cut for now for ambiguous redeeming traits. I found the novel on Google Books, and this paragraph in particular is informative:

[...] everything he had done—or perhaps because of it—Ahtam Zahidov was a patriot. He saw no conflict in wishing to do himself well in the process of serving his country, he saw no fault in the vicousness he showed his enemies. He wanted what was best for his nation, and he did what he did to ensure it. All his love for Severa notwithstanding, it was why he had supported her as President in the first place. It was why he continued to serve her, despite their troubles.

I can see a case for keeping him, however, espcially if he's in it more for his own benefit. He actually sounds frightfully close to some of the Nazi characters who have been qualified in the past, in that they let their "patriotism" run so rampant that they'll go to monstrous extremes to make their country more powerful and become sadistic Knight Templars in the process. From this and other paragraphs I do think his patriotism and love for that President is played too ambiguously, however. I'll say cut until they can offer a better explanation of his motives and what his later crimes are.


Rave Master

  • Complete Monster: Ogre, the only Big Bad character who didn't have a Freudian Excuse. He stole the Silver Ray, reveling in the fact he ruined its creator, Reina's father's reputation and made her life hell as a result. Plus his lust for women is portrayed very negatively.
    • Slade even moreso. Remember him? He was that guy who was introduced during King's Start of Darkness and died by the end of the flashback. Yeah. He's personally responsible for both King and Lucia's Big Bad status. In other words, for a promotion (which he doesn't even live to enjoy, thankfully) he screwed over a decent guy who happened to have turned to the wrong source, and a six year old child whose only crime was being the former's son.
    • Shakuma. While, given that he's a Raregroove, he probably had a Freudian Excuse, we never got to hear it. Instead, all we know is that he's personally responsible for the destruction of Raregroove and Symphonia, as well as all the citizens. He also placed a curse on Haru's grandfather out of spite, a curse that to an unsuspecting victim is an incurable disease out of spite, and deeply enjoyed it, and the reason he went to war with the Symphonians is because it was a game. Like most of the later villains, he views the universe he lives in one that was created by the time warping of an apocalypse survivor who is ironically his ancestor to be false and must destroyed. Also, he was never there when King his own son was suffering, and you'd think he would be more protective of his family.

This is on Anime & Manga:

Slade sounds too minor of a character to count next to the genocidal rapist (Ogre) and the sadistic Omnicidal Maniac (Shakuma). I will need a better explanation on what the possible Freudian Excuse for Shakuma is, however.


Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

  • Complete Monster: The Lesser Mao. He manages to be even worse than his predecessor, and not only does he carry on the worst policies of his predecessor and turn China into what is, effectively, post-Cold War North Korea meets Khmer Rouge-era Cambodia, he also suppresses a military rebellion by nuking the rebel-controlled city of Kwangsi, making it the first time nuclear weapons have been used in anger since Nagasaki. It later turns out that he had an extremely virulent strain of Influenza created that kills the better part of a million people worldwide, none more so than in China itself. This creates the worst health year since the Spanish Flu. Fortunately, the modifications to the virus start to collapse after a few iterations.
    • Magnus Malan in South Africa is slipping into this by the mid-1980s.
    • Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney manage to rack up a truly impressive list of crimes, including winning not one but two presidential elections through increasingly dubious means, destroying the legitimacy of the democratic process through disappearing dissidents and opponents, turning Hollywood into their personal revisionist propaganda engine, intentionally destroying NATO (and planning the same for the UN), almost totally defunding NASA in favor of private space agencies that don't exist in the 1980's, supporting the increasingly fascist South African state, suppressing several of the major technological developments of the 80's in the name of national security, trying to weaponize HIV/AIDS, killing the Internet in it's infancy, bringing together Christian fundamentalists and Randian anarcho-capitalists to try and dissolve all of the state institutions established since the founding of the US in open favor of corporate dominance, imposing an internal passport system on the states, using the China Virus, the Lesser Mao's capture, and Richard Nixon's kidnapping as political tools; all leading up to a puppet Article V Convention that they intend to use to destroy every Constitutional amendment (besides the Right to Bear Arms) and impose a closed-off system where Rumsfeldia may continue unhindered indefinitely with a rubber-stamp Congress and unlimited executive branch. All in the name of freedom.

Lesser Mao has been brought up before, rewritten and kept. Keep him.

I'd be inclined to keeping General Malan, since according to the main page his regime is constantly committing massacres against native Africans with chemical weapons and basically want to blow up the rest of the continent with nukes when their fascist state inevitably reaches the brink of collapse.

Cut Historical Villain Upgrade Dick Cheney for playing second fiddle to President Rumsfeld. Cut Rumsfeld for failing the heinous standard next to Lesser Mao and Malan (most of his actions are just general dictator behavior—you gotta love how "prevent the invention of the internet" is mentioned in the same shocked tone as "weaponize HIV/AIDS for use in chemical warfare") and having standards:

  • Everyone Has Standards: Many right wingers from Nixon to Reagan to Tom Clancy are utterly disgusted and horrified by Rumsfeld's america.
    • Scarily enough, despite almost being a Card-Carrying Villain far past the Moral Event Horizon, even President Rumsfeld is creeped out by the far right christian fanatic he has employed in his administration Tim Lahaye, the author of the Left Behind series.

edited 2nd Aug '14 5:42:28 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#28439: Aug 2nd 2014 at 1:18:40 AM

[up]#28431: Red Skull wasn't going to annihilate all life on one of the galaxy's core worlds, so that kinda makes Ronan worse by a few degrees. Agreed on your second point, though. I'm actually gonna vote [tup] on Ronan despite being heavily opposed.

Also, [tup] on Lord Mar-vell.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#28440: Aug 2nd 2014 at 7:58:48 AM

Re Lord Mar-Vell: Sounds like a keeper.

Re Spandam: I'm going to vote no for the reasons 32 Footsteps originally noted. Despite throwing around the threat of the Buster Call, it didn't seem like he was planning on ever going through with it at any point, he just got off on the power the threat gave him. When he finally does make the call it's a mistake, so his most heinous crime is the result of stupidity, and his unwillingness to retract the call is so he doesn't look foolish to his superiors by admitting he made a mistake. Also, it's really hard for me to consider someone who's so consistently portrayed as a Butt-Monkey, however malicious he may be, as a Complete Monster. It just feels like a violation of the "terribleness must be played seriously at all times" rule.

@28450: I agree with everything Morgenthaler recommended.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#28441: Aug 2nd 2014 at 8:40:02 AM

Sorry if someone pulled this up but I just remembered, if Eviler than Thou is pulled on a supposed Complete Monster do they still count for the purposes of this thread? If they do I think we can remove Jessicka Havok forever as DJ Hyde pulled this on all the heels affiliated with Beyond, including in the two promotions we have pages for, CZW and WSU.

Buldogue's lawyer
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28442: Aug 2nd 2014 at 9:10:02 AM

[up]Not sure if it's decided, but we have only one wrestling Complete Monster anyway: Ox Baker. The only way another would count is if they had multiple "murders"/attempted murders (we only cut Jake Roberts since he had a Heel–Face Turn).

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#28443: Aug 2nd 2014 at 10:08:08 AM

I suppose it depends mainly on whether the Eviler than Thou moment would be a reflection of the story's standards or that of the characters. Villains can always brag about how much better they are than other villains without necessarily succeeding at it. And if it's something like a Lawful Evil versus Chaotic Evil conflict, it can be more about different styles than relative heinousness, which is the conclusion reached from the Simon Phoenix debate.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28444: Aug 2nd 2014 at 11:16:02 AM

Tweaks for these:

  • High School DXD: Raynare is the first Big Bad. While all fallen angels are generally evil, none are as sadistic and manipulative than Raynare. When she spots a target she wants to kill, she poses as their crush and asks them out on a date; when finished. she kills her date and tries to take their power. Issei, the main protagonist, was her second to last victim and was only saved by the devil Rias. However, when she wanted the healing power of Asia's gear power, she had her tortured and killed slowly, giving Issei a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown while giving him a breaking speech, mocking him on how bored she was on their date and how he was powerless to save Asia. Beautiful, sadistic, and sociopathic, Raynare represented some of the worst evil the series had to offer.
  • Lupin III:
    • The Castle of Cagliostro: The unnamed Count leads a cult which wants the secret treasure beneath the Castle's lake. To do this he intends to marry the underage heiress of the Castle, Princess Clarrise. He also has a penchant for locking people in the Castle's dungeons to let them starve to death, which Lupin and Zenigata discovered by seeing the dozens of. Ultimately ,he is a liar who guns down Lupin and Clarrise after promising to her that he'd let Lupin live, purposely missing them to show the power he had over her.
    • Lupin The Third: The Hemingway Papers: The sadistic Mash works for the rebel forces on Colcaca Island in the Mediterranean Sea. He routinely leads his men in attacking innocent people all along the countryside. He is also a former comrade of Jigen's who betrayed Jigen and his entire group, gunned them all down and left Jigen for dead. Ultimately a dirty coward, he is unable to fight the superior Jigen one on one and wants to corner him in traps or when he's in a group.

edited 2nd Aug '14 11:20:25 AM by ACW

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#28445: Aug 2nd 2014 at 11:34:24 AM

@28453: Eviler than Thou isn't an automatic disqualifier, so it depends. Normally, so long as the villain being eclipsed is still as heinous as they can possibly be with the resources at their disposal, they can still qualify. If, however, the Eviler than Thou moment reveals the "lesser evil" has standards or any other redeeming quality, than that would lead to their disqualification.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28446: Aug 2nd 2014 at 11:36:52 AM

So, are we going to discuss the new Hercules film? I have a candidate from the film.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#28447: Aug 2nd 2014 at 11:37:58 AM

Edit:So I'd say disqualified unless DJ Hyde suddenly disappears and she immediately returns to being the worst person on the roster. (after all, Jake Roberts turned eventually face, Havok hasn't succeeded in killing anyone, hasn't even tried recently and has been a face elsewhere)

edited 2nd Aug '14 11:46:34 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28449: Aug 2nd 2014 at 12:06:46 PM

Okay then. From the new film, Hercules, there was the secondary villain, King Eurystheus.

What has he done?

Eurystheus was responsible for the deaths of Hercules' family. He drugged Hercules, and then he used three wolves to maul Hercules' family to death. He then pitched the blame on Hercules, and he utterly destroyed his life.

Any Freudian Excuse?

None. He was only depicted as a malicious ruler who callously ruined Hercules' life, just because of petty jealousy. In fact, he uses Hercules' tragedy against him, and mocked him for his loss, showing that he didn't care that he was ultimately responsible for the deaths of his family members, and that he felt the need to rub it in his face, again just because he was jealous of his accomplishments.

Heinous in-story?

This man was ultimately responsible for all of the tragedies in Hercules' life, and he was the one that ultimately manipulated Hercules into thinking that he killed his own family members.

Conclusion

He was a certainly detestable man that deserves his status as this.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#28450: Aug 2nd 2014 at 12:12:10 PM

Gonna vote no. It sounds like he only crossed the Moral Event Horizon, not that he's a Complete Monster.


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