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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#282528: Oct 8th 2021 at 1:23:15 PM

Yes to Christian and Lawson.

ACW, Lighty said he'll do Luciano's rewrite come his next batch.

Here's Ethan though:

  • Cellular: Detective Ethan Greer is the most ruthless of the cabal of crooked cops. Incidentally filmed by realtor Craig Martin brutally beating and executing two rival drug dealers in his latest power play, Ethan has Craig's wife Jessica kidnapped after killing her housekeeper. Beating Jessica and threatening to kill the Martin's young son, Ethan also kidnaps Craig to retrieve the video and opens fire on the young hero Ryan helping the couple within a crowded bank. Preparing to execute the family until Ryan talks him into meeting to exchange the family for the video, Ethan enjoys hunting down Ryan, beating him down before preparing to shoot him dead and kill the Martins. Savage, sadistic and more than willing to use violence at a moment's notice even against children, Ethan's personal cruelties make him a more vicious adversary than even the leader of the murdering conspiracy underneath his coldblooded, icy exterior.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#282530: Oct 8th 2021 at 1:45:01 PM

[tup] Christian.

[tup] Lawson.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#282532: Oct 8th 2021 at 1:58:03 PM

[tup] to Christian and Richard Lawson

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282534: Oct 8th 2021 at 2:44:58 PM

And one other Marvel...another Wolverine foe. From Wolverine: Bloody Choices, we have Mr. Bullfinch.

Who is Mr. Bullfinch? What has he done?

An grotesquely obese "obscenity of a human being," Mr. Bullfinch is a drug trafficker who has gotten wealthy by peddling hard drugs worldwide; he's described as having knowingly ruined thousands of lives to crack cocaine. What puts him up here, though, is Mr. Bullfinch's other proclivities; he's a child-trafficking pedophile.

Wolverine saves a little kid who escapes from Bullfinch's clutches and sees that the kid's riddled with scars from Bullfinch's abuses. His little brother Palo is still in the clutches of Mr. Bullfinch, and Bullfinch has peddled off countless other little kids to fellow paying "enthusiasts", keeping the children in the husk of an old WWII era interment camp for the Japanese.

Wolverine leaves Palo's brother in the care of a crooked doctor who peddles the kid back off to Bullfinch for some quick cash; Bullfinch tosses the little boy out of a window and murders him. Bullfinch decides to retire from the criminal life out of pragmatism, saying he doesn't want cops or the cartel after him anymore, but while he's buying his way into luxury retirement, he still insists on keeping Palo with him as his personal sex slave.

Wolverine ends up shredding apart everyone in his care—from his pet hitman Shiv to the evil FBI agent who was helping him keep Palo as a slave to begin with—and finishes Bullfinch off as the sad fat fuck is pleading and blubbering for mercy. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Any mitigating factors?

No. The one time Bullfinch ever demonstrates a quality resembling something other than self-interest is when he tells his helicopter to wait for Shiv, who's fighting Wolverine, since Shiv is a useful asset to him. Bullfinch still clarifies he will throw Shiv under the bus if he's "personally" put in harm's way, so yeah, even if Shiv is a favored minion that Bullfinch would rather not lose, he's still just a tool for Bullfinch.

And yeah, I'm gonna guess he passes the standard.

Conclusion?

Easy keep. He's pathetic, but he's a sick, bloated child rapist who's doomed countless little kids to sexual slavery. Next.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#282535: Oct 8th 2021 at 2:48:33 PM

[tup]Bullfinch, Christian and Lawson

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#282536: Oct 8th 2021 at 2:55:45 PM

Hey everyone, just wanted you all to know that I just got the new Metroid Dread, so I'll be taking a break to play that so I can avoid spoilers. That said, I will stick around a bit longer for Lost Judgement to be discussed, as it's discussion date is today, but after that, I'll be taking a break from the thread until I beat Metroid Dread. Just wanted to let you all to know.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
GenericGuy2000 I’m here, I guess. from a generic place. Since: Jul, 2021 Relationship Status: Cast away
I’m here, I guess.
#282538: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:02:16 PM

[tup] Christian and Lawson

Sorry I haven't participated recently, I was focusing on schoolwork.

Hey I want to ask your opinions on something. On the My Hero Academia page All For One is listed as a Magnificent Bastard, but with how the manga is progressing, I feel that he's really teetering into the Complete Monster Zone. Things like how he used the Affably Evil Tragic Villain Lady Nagant to have her fight off against Midoriya, and then activating the "fail safe" he put in her to blow her up when Deku defeated her and tried reasoning with her. A trap he set up likely because he knew Nagant was the kind of person he'd try to reason with. Plus, his relationship with Tomura, the only thing that I think kept out of this trope to begin with, has gradually been shown to be more manipulative then affectionate. Especially given the likelihood All For One just used him to turn him into a new vessel to replace his own body.

Not saying this should be changed now given the manga is still going on, plus the last thing I mentioned may end up being more complex later on, but it may need to be changed eventually. What do you guys think? Is there something more definitive keeping him out of this trope I overlooked?

I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#282539: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:02:31 PM

[tup] Bullfinch.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#282540: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:07:11 PM

For AFO to ever keep here it would need to be revealed he was faking his anger over All Might defeating his comrades. He explicitly mentions those he lost as a reason he despises All Might. The guy is evil as it comes, but he has unmistakable style and brilliance coupled with redeeming qualities.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#282542: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:09:05 PM

Backing Lighty on this one.

Yes to Bullfinch as well.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 8th 2021 at 3:09:18 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#282544: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:16:55 PM

I thought the whole point of All For One that the only reason he pretended to be a Benevolent Boss is because he only sees them as nothing more than pawns for his ambitions and wanting powerful followers and nothing. Note: I never read the mangas or watch the anime just going from what I've heard and researched.

[down] that's kinda not what it meant exactly, I already know this case.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Oct 8th 2021 at 6:20:08 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#282545: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:18:28 PM

AFO is the classic case of a Big Bad that defines the Heinous Standard, but doesn't count because they have genuine redeeming traits.

MCU Thanos is a pretty clear example, easily clears the MCU HS, but he is genuine WIE. I get that AFO's case is a bit different because is a pretty explicity Card-Carrying Villain, but redeeming traits still are redeeming traits even with Card-Carrying Villain.

[up] I was answering in general to the other troper, who seem to be a newbie. I really understand him because at first sight, AFO really seems like a archetypical keeper.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 8th 2021 at 5:25:57 AM

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#282546: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:22:52 PM

Yes to Bullfinch.

[up][ Or even the later Thanos, who became a NSWIE, but still apparently loved Gamora.

Edited by ACW on Oct 8th 2021 at 6:23:55 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
GenericGuy2000 I’m here, I guess. from a generic place. Since: Jul, 2021 Relationship Status: Cast away
I’m here, I guess.
#282548: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:34:36 PM

I suppose. That was an aspect I honestly forgot, but I can see your argument there. I didn't really think it mattered in scheme of the things, but after a second look, I guess you could make a similar argument for his brother Yoichi, given that he could have killed him but chose to lock him up and gave him a quirk out of pity.

I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#282549: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:39:53 PM

Yep, I really understand you. AFO is really heinous and has a lot of really cruel scenes, but mitigant traits are mitigant traits after all.

Watch me destroying my country
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#282550: Oct 8th 2021 at 3:42:05 PM

[tup]Bullfinch.

Why so serious?

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