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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

WhiteWolf4961 Since: Apr, 2019
#281976: Oct 3rd 2021 at 7:50:07 PM

Alright. Duly noted. Won’t happen again. Didn’t know that this website doesn’t apply to the stuff from other websites. So it won’t happen again. I’m not trying to start edit warring.

Edited by WhiteWolf4961 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 8:02:48 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#281977: Oct 3rd 2021 at 8:05:17 PM

Welcome to the Complete Monster cleanup, Wolfie.

Feel free to PM me or anyone else for any work recommendations.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#281978: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:01:34 PM

I want to cut my Blaster Knuckle C Ms.

Thinking about it...they're fairly Always Chaotic Evil. Sure, they're nastier that the average demon, enough to horrify their own offspring. But at the same time, they all are shown as sadistic monsters that work with humans to maximize the amount of sufferent they can cause.

I EP-ed them thinking on the then- recently aproved Goblin King from Goblin Slayer...and well, he got cut for the same right reason.

Watch me destroying my country
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#281979: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:06:59 PM

That does sound like it could be a problem I will think on that.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:07:53 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#281980: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:25:01 PM

[up][up]Could you maybe go into more detail. That way we can form a more concrete opinion.

Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:27:44 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281981: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:30:50 PM

I need more detail. That the entire race is Always Chaotic Evil is concerning (I still hold it's the primary reason the Younger Princess Shroob can't count) but not on its own completely mitigating if they're notably worse than the others.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#281982: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:33:03 PM

I do believe that Always Chaotic Evil used to be an instant disqualifier but I guess that changed a bit with the new agency rules.

I would appreciate some more detail though.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:33:25 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#281983: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:36:45 PM

Every indication with Goblins has been they're evil inherently. Is that the case with the demons here?

Looking over the entries I guess my question would be in what way are they worse than other demons? They appear to eat more but are they noticeably nastier for scheming or anything?

Edited by 43110 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 12:39:34 PM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281984: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:39:49 PM

The Goblins are a special case because they're shown to be conniving murderers and rapists even as children. It is quite literally a biological species trait that they are Always Chaotic Evil and it's why the Goblin King was deservedly cut.

If the series expounds on their nature to that extent, cut, but...

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#281985: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:50:33 PM

I found these tropes on the work page. It implies that the demons were just normal humans that were already evil. If this means they transformed into demons because they were humans that chose to be evil in the first place, then there are no agency issues here.

Humans Are the Real Monsters: Considering the era this manga takes place in, the demons are simply humans who transformed into the beasts within themselves and act out on their darkest impulses.

This Was His True Form: Every demon that Victor kills reverts to its former human form upon death, which causes problems for Victor who already has to deal with the racism of the period.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:52:09 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#281986: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:53:52 PM

I found this on Characters.Die Hard:

Seeing how the novel Gruber is also listed as a CM, how much of the part calling him a WIE is true?

Edited by JRads47 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 12:53:58 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#281987: Oct 3rd 2021 at 9:57:17 PM

It seems this was brought up a few months ago but I couldn't find a definite answer to it, also I can't find an EP (not saying he is a cut this is just what I found searching him up).

Update: Nevermind that I did just find the EP.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:00:27 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#281988: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:03:56 PM

He's a fanatical terrorist, with delusions of being a Knight Templar, not a WIE

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#281989: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:05:24 PM

I cut the entry.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#281991: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:24:24 PM

Anton keeps and from what I'm hearing I'm thinking the demons are fine to stay.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#281992: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:32:57 PM

Found this on Characters.Rune Scape, Drakan's folder:

  • Even Evil Has Loved Ones: Possibly, after being beaten at the end of his boss fight he asks if Vanescula still lives. On being asked why he even cares he responds:
    Drakan: She is...my sister.

I can only assume it is not accurate.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#281993: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:41:22 PM

Coming in late but 'Yes' to Despondeo and Coven, I brushed the latter off years ago when I read his arc but knowing what I know now, absolutely counts by our standards.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#281994: Oct 3rd 2021 at 10:43:04 PM

I have no belief that he ever truly cared for her. Drakan says this just before he begins hunting her in the same quest:

Lowerniel Drakan: Good. Everything is in place. Now the hunt can begin!

(Camera pans around, shifting to look at Vanescula from behind Lowerthiel)

Vanescula Drakan: Hunt? You would treat your own sister as prey! How dare you?

Lowerniel Drakan: If you insist on siding with humans, on looking like one, then I will hunt you like one! Here, let me show you how...

And then there's this, implying he would have her raped or murdered if she didn't comply:

Player: You would stop turning humans into vyres?

Lowerniel Drakan: The creation of your like was a mistake. You are a burden on our resources, and my nobles' reliance on your kind's servitude has made them weak. Vampyres should be sired by true-borns alone.

Vanescula Drakan: I would rather die than become someone's broodmare.

Lowerniel Drakan: Then perhaps you shall!

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#281995: Oct 3rd 2021 at 11:22:58 PM

[tup] to Kate Daniels, Diethard Ried, Alicia Lohmeyer, Stoker Collins, Despondeo, Karl Coven, and Ra's al-Ghul. Switching to a [tup] on Samuel Peabody too (thank you for the clarification, MGD107). As for Natacha, I'm leaning on keeping her (I don't think her dismissal of her parents is meant to quash any sympathy for her backstory and any corrupting force from the Witch sounds too vague for me to peg her crimes on).

@STARCRUSHER99: My deepest apologies to hear that. Take all the time you need.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#281996: Oct 3rd 2021 at 11:37:54 PM

Alright Natacha from Nightbooks. *cracks knuckles*

So if you have a Netflix account but don't want to watch the whole thing the timestamp is about 1h15

Natacha: I was about your age when she [the original witch] got me. There were a lot of us back then. But we weren't dumb. We knew not to get attached, because she got hungry.\\
Yaz: She ate them?
Natacha: Yes *chuckles* all of them. *summons a vision* *sad tone* And then I had to clean the oven. Pretend to like her. Pretended to want to be like her. I became her favorite. But when I was alone, I plotted my escape. I would get her to trust me. And then, a sleeping potion and I would be free. I ran straight home... but my parents were gone.
Alex: *sympathetically* They left you.
Natacha: I had nowhere else to go, so I came back here. *angrily stops her vision* Who care about them?

That's it, unless I missed something, Natacha never elaborates further why she felt like she had no choice but return to the witch. There's no indication that harvesting the first witch's powers causes agency issues (Yaz briefly uses it just fine).

That's my final words. I'll let you be the judge. I won't die on that hill and I certainly won't lose any sleep if she gets cut. For what it's worth, I found the movie itself mediocre but entertaining.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Oct 3rd 2021 at 8:48:37 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#281997: Oct 3rd 2021 at 11:49:49 PM

Personally...I'm a nay. I think she's far more affected than she lets on and in my eyes, she's a traumatized kid taking on the persona of the actual monster.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#281998: Oct 4th 2021 at 12:01:12 AM

Eh, I am not seeing any strong evidence she is affected to a degree that is disqualifying, I guess I will stick with a weak keep.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#281999: Oct 4th 2021 at 12:03:10 AM

I also want to make clear that the original witch is a serial child murderer probably worse to Natacha, who is in the end? A terrified victim who fled a monster, found out everyone she loved was gone and went back since she had nothing left to her, and took on the persona of the witch as a survival mechanism and not knowing what else to do with her life.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#282000: Oct 4th 2021 at 12:04:38 AM

Honestly, the original witch (Grizelda according to the credits) seems like she could be worth an EP.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

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