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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#28151: Jul 27th 2014 at 1:10:15 AM

Given Fist Of The North Star's track record of redeeming the worst scumbags around, drawing a comparison to it in this context is not really a vote of confidence. Waiting sounds like a good idea, at any rate.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#28152: Jul 27th 2014 at 5:52:20 AM

Speaking of Fist of the North Star here's a slight rewrite for Souther, removing the question marks.

  • Emperor Souther, the Holy Emperor, in the OVA has all of the evil deeds of his manga counterpart, but none of the Freudian Excuse. Souther runs a brutal empire that enslaves thousands of innocent children and works them to death. He poisons supplies he knows the rebellion will steal (and knows they'll give the food to their children first and throws himself huge banquets, eats a small plate, and destroys the rest, all for the sick glee of watching the starving slaves suffer, while having them beaten if they try to eat any of the excess. Souther forces his old friend Shu, the rebellion's leader, to make his way up an enormous pyramid holding the enormous stone cap piece meant to finish it with cut tendons. If he drops it, every single slave will die, if anyone helps him Souther tells them their families will be executed, and once Shu finally does make it to the top of that pyramid Souther orders his archers to put arrows into then finishes him off with a thrown spear.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28153: Jul 27th 2014 at 8:34:17 AM

[up] with potholes and edits for clarity (mainly fixing run-on sentences):

  • The OVA version of Emperor Souther/Thouzer, the self-proclaimed Holy Emperor, has all of the evil deeds of his manga counterpart, but none of the Freudian Excuse, graceful loser, or other redeeming qualities. Souther runs a brutal empire that enslaves thousands of innocent children and works them to death. He poisons supplies he knows the rebellion will steal (while knowing they'll give the food to their children first) and throws himself huge banquets, eats a small plate, and destroys the rest, all for the sick glee of watching the starving slaves suffer; he has them beaten if they try to eat any of the excess. Souther forces his old friend Shu, the rebellion's leader, to make his way up (with cut tendons) an enormous pyramid holding the enormous stone cap piece meant to finish it. If he drops it, every single slave will die, while if anyone helps him Souther tells them their families will be executed. Once Shu finally does make it to the top of that pyramid Souther orders his archers to put arrows into Shu before finishing him off with a thrown spear.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:46:39 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28154: Jul 27th 2014 at 9:23:24 AM

Well, the anime ended completely with Joa firmly in the CM camp. I think we can add her for that, anyways. If anything changes in the manga, e can always snip her

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28156: Jul 27th 2014 at 10:47:33 AM

[up]Nuke it, with a link to this thread. Actually, for ones like those I don't even know if you have to ask.

edited 27th Jul '14 10:48:03 AM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28157: Jul 27th 2014 at 10:49:51 AM

Amphitryon? Well, that's some serious Adaptational Villainy. In the myths he's just exasperated due to deadbeat dad Zeus dumping a demigod off on his family.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#28158: Jul 27th 2014 at 10:58:59 AM

[up]Well, that's no issue (apparently Frollo was more of an Anti-Villain in the novel).

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#28159: Jul 27th 2014 at 11:00:12 AM

Not an issue, just a surprise to a myth nerd like me. Anyone know what he does?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28160: Jul 27th 2014 at 11:04:00 AM

The guy is pretty invovled in the plot so here is the wikipedia article on the movie.

In 1200 BC ancient Greece, King Amphitryon of Tires invades the shores of Argos. The two massive armies face each other, prepared for battle. Amphitryon strikes a bargain with the rival King Galenus: the two will fight to the death, to the victor goes his adversary's kingdom and army. The two engage in combat and Amphitryon easily defeats Galenus and seizes his kingdom. That night, Amphitryon is visited by his estranged wife, Queen Alcmene. Amphitryon boasts he won the kingdom for her while Alcmene protests he won the kingdom for himself and its gold. Alcmene is disgusted by her husband's thirst for power and warmongering. She prays to Hera for guidance. A woman appears declaring herself to be Hera, wife of Zeus, and prophesies that Alcmene will bear the son of Zeus and he will be the savior of her people. The only other witness to this is Chiron, the queen's loyal adviser.

That night, as Amphitryon celebrates his victory, Alcmene is visited by Zeus. She is discovered by Amphitryon who believes the Queen has taken a mortal lover. Alcmene soon gives birth to a healthy baby boy whome his father names Alcides, but she secretly acknowledges his true name: Hercules. Twenty years later, a strong and handsome Hercules/Alcides rides along the countryside with his love, Hebe. They frolic along the shore of a secluded lake. Alcides admires Hebe's necklace which was given to her by her mother; she in turn bestows the necklace to Alcides. The two are discovered by Alcides' older brother, Iphicles. A search party was dispatched to look for Hebe, a princess of Crete. Hebe returns to the palace along with her guard while Alcides and Iphicles follow. Along the way, the two are attacked by a lion. Alcides wrestles with the lion, strangling it. Iphicles takes all the credit and arrives at the royal banquet wearing the lion's pelt as a cloak. He attempts to humiliate Alcides, calling him a coward but Hebe sees right through him. At the banquet Amphitron announces the engagement of Hebe and Iphicles. The two lovers are devastated and decide to run away together. They are chased down by the royal guard and Hebe nearly drowns before being saved by Alcides. Alcides is taken back to the palace and is sent away by his father to join a campaign of soldiers to Egypt.

As Alcides prepares for his journey, Alcyone tells him of his true lineage. Alcides believes it is madness and departs for his journey vowing to return to Hebe in three moons before her impending nuptials. Alcides, under the command of Captain Sotiris, traverses the arid Egyptian desert. Sotiris sends two scouts ahead to scour the desert but they never return. The company is ambushed, leaving Alcides and Sotiris as the last survivors. The leader of the ambush recovers Alcides' helmet and demands to know where the prince is. Sotiris gestures to the body of a slain soldier, saying he is Alcides. Alcides refers to himself as Hercules to protect his identity. It is revealed that Amphitryon planned the ambush in hopes of killing Hercules. The two are sold off as slaves to a vicious promoter who organizes gladiator style fights. Sotiris and Hercules fight to death with other slaves and soon become undefeated. Sotiris and Hercules convince the promoter to send them to Greece in order to fight in an arena battle in which two gladiators fight six undefeated gladiators. If the promoter were to bet on Hercules and Sotiris he would have riches beyond his wildest dreams. The promoter agrees to take Sotiris and Hercules if they are able to defeat two other gladiators, Half Face and Humbaba. The four are thrown into an arena, with narrow stone paths divided by pits studded with spikes. Hercules defeats Half Face and Humbaba but Sotiris is injured. The promoter refuses to take Sotiris, since he will be useless in battle but Hercules convinces him to set Sotiris free and he will fight all six gladiators himself.

Back in Greece, Alcmene and Hebe mourn the death of Hercules. Alcmene once again seeks guidance from Hera. Amphitryon discovers her and confronts her about Hercules' parentage. She reveals she took Zeus as her lover so that she would bear the child that would overthrow him, after which she tries to stab Amphitryon, but fails. In anger, Amphitryon stabs Alcmene with her own dagger. Chiron discovers them and Amphitryon tells him the Queen committed suicide in her grief. Meanwhile, Hercules arrives in Greece and easily bests the six gladiators in battle. The people celebrate his victory and deserters of Amphitryon's army join him and Sotiris. Chiron brings Hercules' news of his mother, who vows to avenge her death. Sotiris and Hercules seek refuge in the home of the human vessel of Hera, who foretells Hercules' destiny.

Hebe is in anguish after the death of Alcides and dreads her wedding to Iphicles, in just two moons. She tries to leap off the roof of the palace but is saved by Chiron who brings her to Hercules. The two are reunited and return to Hercules' safe-house. Amphitryon's army begins to desert him, forcing him to hire foreign mercenaries. Hercules and Sotiris begin a fight against Amphitryon's campaign of tyranny, angering Amphitryon who seeks to destroy them. Iphicles, aided by the mercenaries, murders Sotiris' wife and uses his son as a bargaining chip. He must lead them to Hercules or his son will die. Sotiris reluctantly leads them to the safe-house. Iphicles discovers that Hercules is none other than his brother Alcides. Hercules, Chiron, and Hebe are captured. Sotiris and Chiron are imprisoned while Hercules is chained and publicly flogged. Sotiris and Chiron are brought before the crowd. Hercules watches on in horror as Iphicles murders Chiron under Amphitryon's orders. In anguish he acknowledges his father and calls upon him for strength. Hercules breaks free from his chains and crushes Amphitryon's guard. Amphitryon and Iphicles escape.

Hercules and Sotiris raise an army and storm Amphitryon's palace. Amphitryon's guard join Hercules and his army and they battle Amphitryon's mercenaries. Hercules calls upon his father who infuses his sword with the power of lightning. Hercules easily defeats the mercenaries with his lightning sword. He meets Amphitryon inside and the two duel. Hercules nearly defeats Amphitryon but Iphicles holds Hebe hostage and threatens to kill her if Hercules does not let Amphitryon go. Hercules hesitates but Hebe thrusts the dagger through her shoulder, killing Iphicles. Hercules finally avenges Alcmene's death and kills Amphitryon with the same blade that killed his mother. Hercules rushes to Hebe's side as she slowly drifts into unconsciousness. Nearly a year later, the cries of a baby are heard. Hebe gives birth to a beautiful baby boy. Hercules looks on lovingly at his new family. That night, he watches over his kingdom, finally fulfilling his destiny.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#28161: Jul 27th 2014 at 12:41:00 PM

If I recall right, we voted a yes for Erlik, didn't we? Did he ever get added to the mythology page? and can Amphytrion's deeds be summarized?

Before I do my writeups, i have an example: Colonel Ives from the film Ravenous

Who Is he?

A bit murky, as the film's a bit ambiguous on this front, but best as we can figure Ives is an army colonel in the wilderness of California. When the hero of the film, Boyd, is fighting in the Mexican-American War, his cowardice ended up in him playing dead in a battle where his comrades all died. Boyd's body was dragged into a grave in the fort, where he was able to capture it and win accolades as a war hero. His commanding officer knows Boyd is really a coward and reassigns him to California, in the middle of nowhere.

That's when Reverend Calqhoun shows up. The Reverend was part of a traveling party led by Colonel Ives, that got...trapped in a blizzard for the better part of a month. they ate the oxen, then the horses...then one man died of malnutrition and they ate him. Then Ives began killing the others to eat them. Calqhoun fled, leaving the rest with the Colonel. The men of Boyd's fort, more to have something to do than anything, have Calqhoun lead them back to the cave he left Ives and everyone at...as they arrive at the cave, though, Calqhoun begins getting weird...

several soldiers search the cave and find...too many bodies. Calqhoun is Ives and he's led them into a trap. Ives proceeds to slaughter everyone in the group save for Boyd, who survives thanks to lucky happenstance (and cannibalizing the corpse of another victim).

when he arrives back at the fort, Ives has beat him there. Everyone who could have identified him save for Boyd is dead, and Ives begins preying on the rest of the soldiers

What's he Done?

Ives has an enormous body count. With the old party, that's five or six killed, with another bunch murdered after that. When his gun is empty for the final soldier, Ives shows great glee in hunting him down and gutting him like fish after cheerfully telling him to 'run!'

Ives reveals he was a sickly man when he heard of the Wendigo legend, and decided to try it, first eating the man who told him the legend. He then exposes his plan to great a country ruled by cannibals with himself at the top: human flesh allows one the power of the Wendigo, but brings with it the addiction to human flesh. Ives plans to recruit powerful people into his little conspiracy 9at one point summing up an arriving group of soldiers as "breakfast, lunch, reinforcements.")

To force Boyd into the group, Ives guts him, then gives him the choice of eating a "stew a la Major Knox" or dying. Boyd opts to eat.

Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?

Ives has no redeeming natures to speak of. I should note that of the cannibals of the film, he is the only one presented as evil. Ives is not a victim of addiction, but a gleeful predator who murders without thinking otherwise. One of the ones Ives recruit has Boyd kill him to stop him. Boyd himself, at film's end, finally engages Ives in a duel and sets a trap to kill them both and stop the Wendigo plague. Ives comments as the two are impaled together if Boyd dies first, Ives will definitely eat him, but the better question is what will Boyd do? Plus, add Ives plan to create a cannibal ruling class with himself at the top, in addition to multiple vicious murders. Not only did he willingly become the Wendigo, he glories in it.

As a sidenote, I really recommend this movie.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#28163: Jul 27th 2014 at 5:20:58 PM

Found an example on YMMV.Avatar The Last Alicorn.

Complete Monster: Apparently both Discord and Crysalis shared this. Though Discord has a more infamous reputation, Crysalis's plan to invade the real world and killing Shining Armor in the past was pretty harsh.

Should we cut this for being a ZCE?

Also, any votes on Shredtail or Clear Sky?

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#28164: Jul 27th 2014 at 5:25:24 PM

Any CM entry that starts with "apparently" can probably be considered a safe cut.

Superchristiana Since: Feb, 2014
#28165: Jul 27th 2014 at 5:33:44 PM

Proposing for Camouflage's Archbishop Argile.

Who is he

The Archbishop of Tigue (a fictional french town where the plot takes place) from 1508 A.D.. The story's fundamental Big Bad, he is the main head of operations of the Catholic Church in Tigue, and is particularly focused on convicting (and executing) people for their homosexuality. Predictably, this makes him drive the plot forward once Luc (the protagonist's love interest while in medieval France) gets arrested for being caught having sex with the protagonist.

Personality wise, imagine if Agatha Trunchbull was a closeted male stag that somehow ended up in a position of power in the Catholic Church, and that instead of targetting kids targatted gay men.

What's he done

Initially portrayed as being disturbingly enthusiastic and obsessed about mutilating and executing gay men (which based on Luc's description, pretty much means he has a massive body count behind him), he is then revealed as nothing more than a thug and bully under his self-righteous veneer, verbally and psychologically intimidating his undelrings into becoming his loyal servants.

But the true extent of his malevolence is fully revealed when he accepts Danilo's offer to save Luc's life. This offer, mind you, is suffering a semi gonadectomy, to have one of his testicles removed, and mind you, we're not spared in the least the descriptions of pain, mutilation and lack of hyegiene. Not only does he subtly mocks Danilo by slyly comparing his sacrifice with Jesus suffering for the unfortunate, he watches this intently with a clear sadistic pleasure... and screws Danilo's deal anyways and sentences Luc for execution, while damaging Danilo's reputation.

Then we find out that he's been raping the convicts - most of which castrated youg men - right before they get executed, preventing his reputation from being ruined. This of course includes Luc, whose situation is treated with the trauma you'd expect. Danilo tries to strike a deal with him, to offer his own body for Luc's life, to which Argile simply responds by humiliating him and ordering his servant to drag him downstairs and prepare him for sex, blackmailing Danilo into being raped, with no intentions of sparing Luc's life.

He never truly suffers the consequences for any of this, beyond slight obscurity in modern reccords.

Any freudian excuses and/or redeeming traits?

Initially he's portrayed as a Knight Templar, but it quickly becomes clear that all he's doing is to satisfy his sadistic whims and power hunger, not even sincerily believing in what he preaches beyond considering gay men to be an inferior form of life, and having no compulsions about mocking Jesus or the saints when verbally abusing other people. He has no legitimate redeeming traits to his personality: he is shown to not be the least bit interested in any form of altruism, down to being implied that he doesn't believe in love, he pretty much dominates everyone around him, and he takes pleasure in causing suffering to other people. His motivations are solely to consolidate his power and to vent his frustrations, hatred and repressed sexual impulses on his victims.

He may have a freudian excuse in that he's closetted, but this is not treated as a justification for his crimes in any way whatsoever. In fact, it works to make him all the more repulsive, as it's stated that he should have known better.

How do other characters view him?

The Catholic Church and the populace in public treats him with respect, but the only people satisfied with his rule are other sadists, like the guards. The other clerics are very evidently terrified of him, but try to not show it.

Everyone else sees him at best as a morally repulsive monster, including faithful catholics that otherwise don't have a problem with the church's zealotry. Danilo does at points pity him, but ultimately he comes to see him as a dangerous threat and a cautionary example of what could happen if he didn't become an activist.

edited 27th Jul '14 5:39:01 PM by Superchristiana

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#28167: Jul 27th 2014 at 6:55:25 PM

Post 28173: I think Ives qualifies. I'll give him a [tup]. Also, I could see your reasoning for a separate entry for Anime!Joa. I'm still abstaining on the manga version, but if she is still a CM by the time she dies/permanently removed from the picture in the manga, we can add manga exclusive details to the entry.

Post 28175: By now, most people on this thread will know how I feel about all MLP: FIM characters, canon or fanfic. [tdown] and burn both Discord and Crysalis.

[up][up] Gee beasties. [tup] for Argile

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#28169: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:28:45 PM

I kinda wish we could have a blanket ban on all MLP examples canon or fanon. The show, regardless of how people portray it, just isn't dark enough to have a Complete Monster in my eyes. The fanfics seem too exaggerated, are Ron the Death Eater, and most of the time they either don't meet the heinous standard or are hyperboles. I wish we could just burn the whole MLP fanfic page and just say nothing from anything related to MLP can qualify, because there are just so many damn fics and it's tedious for just one person (I.e me) to sift through each of the fanfics and check if there's an example.

Also to my knowledge, the Pony Avatar thing had Discord as Ozai and I think Chrysalis was Yakone. Ozai qualifies so if Discord is anything like Ozai (especially since Sweetie Belle is Azula and she's well, you know, a child) he would most likely qualify. If someone with any knowledge of ATLA could do a writeup of Discord (I'm sure his crimes are exactly the same as-) You know what? Never mind. I'm sick of all these fanfic examples and I'm cracking under the pressure. I just wish there was an easy solution to all this, like maybe a blanket ban.

I know I've been rambling on for a while, but what do you guys think of a MLP fanfic blanket ban?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28170: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:32:14 PM

Klavice, we've had this talk before. We are not perma-banning the MLP examples. We're only getting rid of the bad examples. Again, as I have already stated earlier, we can measure the fanfics up by how the darkness goes hand-in-hand with the atmosphere, and get rid of the obvious examples in which the darkness is played for shock value.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:34:06 PM by AustinDR

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28171: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:35:05 PM

We keep kicking the idea around, but ultimately never do anything about it. The main reason being that it makes us look like reactionary elitists.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#28172: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:37:32 PM

The Avatar pony thing is apparently still ongoing, if Discord is supposed to be Ozai in it it's probably safe to just cut him on the 'their character arc must finished' rule.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:39:22 PM by doineedaname

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#28174: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:44:28 PM

I agree with the temporary cut, plus, there's zero context, so there's no way to know if they're heinous enough as is.

Shadow?
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#28175: Jul 27th 2014 at 7:48:41 PM

Cool. On a different note, does anyone read the light novels or watch the anime of Date A Live? If so, what are your thoughts on Jessica Bayley potentially qualifying?

FYI, I'm adding Sir Isaac Ray Peram Wescott and Ellen Mira Mathers into my watchlist. The light novels are ongoing and, while the anime version is getting a movie later this year, neither of them have been dealt with as of the end of the second season. As a result, it's probably not wise to write effortposts for either one just yet even though the former has done way more than enough to qualify.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:18:19 PM by sanfranman91


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