During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lila, the author admits this is a bashing fic I am pretty sure we don't allow those.
Sure to Knull, abstaining on Lila.
I myself do think I'll lean towards a Yes on Doc/Jameson, even if it's just leaning. He kills several people to secure the cure and not have to share profits, and then goes on to hold the threat of a horrible death over an entire town lest they pay him outrageous ransom prices. Sure, no one is explicitly said to not meet his price and therefore die, but every indicator is that he knows they could have, would have been fine with it, and he's still charging a small damn fortune for something that should have been free and is saving an entire town. For such a low-level scumbag, I do think I'll ultimately lean Yes on him.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!No to Lila. We're not very receptive to character bashing fics and it honestly sounds like she's not even passing the baseline anyway.
Could we get some more discussion on Jameson, too? I really, really do not want this guy to be ignored considering the amount of time that STAR, myself and our friends have spent discussing him. Downvote, upvote, abstain, whatever—just don't ignore the EP, people. It's extremely rude.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 25th 2021 at 1:06:09 PM
For the Doc...I'm a sad nay. The issue is even the original Hex stuff is chock-full of horror. You have mass murdered, utilization of mass plague, poisonings...you need to get into the realms of serial killings, torture, attempted genocide, mass slaughter, etc. to merit a spot there.
Jameson is willing to use an outbreak, but the key for me? He's not causing it. He's not proliferating it. He's capitalizing on it, extorting people from it and giving them the choice of destitution or death. On his own, I think I'd be more lenient but in the massive heinous standard of Jonah Hex, I don't think he passes muster.
@Lighty: And the issue for me considering that argument—he doesn't cause the plague, but he knowingly murders the one singular person able and willing to cure it for free for the sake of his own greed. Whether he started the plague or not at that point is apples and oranges; what matters is that he is very willing to start condemning potentially dozens of sick and elderly to horrific death if they're not willing to pay.
Like, to compare, Outbreak? The villain there doesn't cause the outbreak himself, but he's cheerfully willing to let the virus ravage an entire town while he knowingly withholds the cure. At that point it stops mattering if it's murder by inaction or action; it's still murder.
Putting this into words and having ruminated, you know what? I'm saying yes to Doc Jameson, concretely. It's not a strong upvote, but Jameson is scum.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 25th 2021 at 1:16:18 PM
Scraggle: Fair points, too.
My own next one...from the original run of Hex, the two-part arc, Mountain of the Manitou, I give you...the Manitou
Who is the Manitou?
A supposed religious leader of the Native community, the Manitou is a brutal and cruel warlord who fancies himself "Ke'ci Manitowa," the greatest and most powerful of all spirits. Eliminating all who stumble upon him until team Hex finds him.
Once a nobody, the Manitou had a bloody dream of genocide and ar...after raising the tribes of Natives, he sees himself at their heads, slaughtering all the white men and driving them out and leaving himself as the god of the Natives...and by this, he plans to blow up a dam, killing everyone in the valley by burying it underwater and frame the Natives to start a massive war as he gathers his followers....he plans to kill Jonah's men.
Except for the one woman who he lecherously remarks can 'persuade" him to let her live. Hex of course gets free to engage the Manitou and followers before they blow the valley with the dynamite.
Jonah cuts the explosive fuses and manages to corner the Manitou, sending him and his followers to the hangman.
Mitigating issues?
Oh god no. The guy plans to wipe out the population of an entire valley, cause a genocidal war so he can force the Native tribes to turn to him as a savior so he can launch a genocide and reign as a god.
No, nothing positive to say. He's a raving madman and one of the worst villains of all of the series and the Pre-Crisis Hex stuff, easily.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 25th 2021 at 12:18:14 PM
And a yep to the Manitou
Scraggle put my thoughts there very well. To be clear, if he were just rolling up in the town to withhold the cure for profit that'd be one thing, but he also kills other people who either were going to sell it for free or that he'd have to split profits with. It's not just showing up in town with the cure for a price, it's taking active steps to ensure that he gets to essentially hold the town for ransom all by himself that made him at least worth a discussion to me. Of course, it's a tricky case, so certainly no hard feelings on any disagreements.
Manitou is indeed an easy Keeper
Gonna snag the upcoming horror flick The Black Phone. Doubtful of any contenders given the source material, but who knows!
For reference, Black Phone was originally a short story by Joe Hill. The villain's a disgusting pedophilic child killer, but he just misses out by seeming genuinely unwell and for being pretty upset when he "has to" cleave his brother's head in half to avoid him exposing the killer's crimes. Movie might switch things up so def snagging.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Yes to Manitou.
If it were just Jameson rolling into town and proposing the cure at an exorbitant price? He wouldn't keep. But as STAR said? He's deliberately killing off the people who can cure the virus just for the sake of his greed. The amount of death he's willing to rack up with that thought process is insane. At this point I'm not just considering Jameson, I'm encouraging him.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 25th 2021 at 1:32:14 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Knull, Manitou, and leaning yes to Jameson.
to this Lila- thankfully, we have another one from a fic that doesn’t just exist to bash her.
As for Gristol, one of his Memory Vaults- the one where he is saved from soldiers by Maligula- has him pointing while she drowns them, presumably ordering her to do the deed, and he seems to have at least been supportive of his father drowning innocent protestors in cold blood, if not outright involved, given how he watches them drown with apathy in the other Memory Vault. Is this worth mentioning in his entry?
Edited by MasterN on Sep 25th 2021 at 1:04:51 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
to Craig, knull, manitou, and Jameson
to Lila
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 25th 2021 at 4:26:46 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffGonna also reserve our boi's Scraggle's upcoming sequel to Chasing Butterflies, "At the End of the Rails", gotta keep a check out for anyone who might even approach Hive or the Gentlemen
@ACW: I'd say it's a matter of realism, tbh—Pre-Crisis was way more "out there" superheroics with their plots, so villains somehow weaponising smallpox or wiping out towns with floods was way more likely than VS Post-Crisis where the villains were a bit more grounded (just a bit—hi Sawbones and the upcoming Prairie Witch lol)
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
