During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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I see your point, but there is also the matter of how brutal his murders are.
If we need specifics, Berti is seen stalking and nearly attacking one or two extra victims throughout the film only to not go through with it because of outside factors pulling the women away from his grasp, giving more than enough "proof" to his intent for me. And it's worth noting that Berti is solely responsible for his killcount, completely—Neal doesn't come in until after Berti's first 4 killings, and it's only to meet Berti, play along with his sadistic glee, then cleave his head. Berti's only "inspiration and/or help" is from Neal's novel, and it's then Berti who "inspires" Neal to then become a spree killer himself. Neal is the copycat, and while he gets a higher bodycount in a shorter time, Berti was the original serial killer who is gleeful about getting Neal's apparent alliance.
Understand the hesitations, but Berti's plenty brutal for the genre, and Neal doesn't properly outheinous him except in the most abstract of ways. Neal having like two more confirmed kills VS Berti who's explicitly shown to nearly attack several more women only to be thwarted last second + has the youngest victim between the two of them isn't enough for me to say either is inarguably worse than the other.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 20th 2021 at 2:18:27 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Large sections of this are copied from his Villaisn wiki article
DolphZ has been suspended from the forums for plagiarism.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Indeed happy to see you tackle that one, mir, I'm sure you'll do a genuinely thorough job!
Next up from the Ravok, got this reevaluation, yet another one that I think benefits from the updated agency rulings...
What's the work?
Heavy Metal is...an experience. Basically Fantasia but with lots more drugs, violence, rocknroll and sex...so, so much sex...the film—based off the comics of the same name—gives us an anthology of animated tales stretching far and wide across space-time, the basic gist of the plot summed up eloquently by our own Scraggle:
What is the Loc-Nar? What has it done?
A glowing green orb thing of unknown origin that cheerfully describes itself as "the sum of all evils...from one war to another, my influence is always present. The paltry armies of the universe are mere playthings to me.", Loc-Nar exists in all times and all dimensions at once, a travelling nomad of corruption who seeks nothing more than to cause destruction wherever it goes.
As described above, the general framing device of the movie kicks off when an astronaut returns from space to bring his little girl a glowing orb...the orb is Loc-Nar, which quickly disintegrates the astronaut and corners the man's daughter. Loc-Nar intends to kill the girl as well, but first, for shits, giggles and just bragging rights, Loc-Nar first spends the entire hour and a half movie just mortifying this small child with tales and Mind Rape visions of some of its evildoing. That'll amp your rep right up, boss!
Loc-Nar's influence affects all the stories told in one way or another, even if on smaller scales...the stories "Captain Sternn" and "So Beautiful, So Dangerous" have the least affect from Loc-Nar, but nonetheless display its powers driving men mad with rage and lust, getting people killed and a woman nearly raped.
In the story "Harry Canyon", Loc-Nar is found by archaeologists, who it quickly vaporizes a couple of before being taken for a museum expose. Death and corruption follow Loc-Nar, and its influence causes a mob boss to murder the lead archeologist and begin pursuing the man's daughter to gain access to Loc-Nar. When the daughter and her partner Harry make a swap for a small fortune in exchange for Loc-Nar, Loc-Nar uses the mob boss to escape its confinement and promptly atomizes him, while its influence is implied to have driven the daughter to insane greed and to betray Harry, Loc-Nar bragging to its little girl audience "My evil corrupts the most innocent!"
In "Den", Loc-Nar presides over an entire society revolving around ritualistic cult sacrifices to an Eldritch Abomination, offering its power to whoever slays young screaming women before its presence. In the not-fully-animated-but-still-canon "Neverwhere Land", we see that—on at least one version of Earth—Loc-Nar is the progenitor of all things across Earth, having a hand in the creation of dinosaurs, insects and mankind...as well as being shown to be the influence behind Jack the Ripper, Roman Empire bloody conquering, and more modern world wars that claim countless lives.
The tale "B-17" sees Loc-Nar attacks a World War II bomber plane, transforming the crew into zombies that tear apart each other, the sole survivor leaping out of his crashing plane to land safely on a remote island...only to find an entire armada of crashed planes from different eras, all filled with dead, zombified crew thanks to Loc-Nar who close in on the screaming survivor.
The grand finale story, "Taarna", shows Loc-Nar landing on an alien world, where its influence causes a volcanic eruption of lava poisoned by its power, turning an entire legion of men into mutated, enslaved extensions of Loc-Nar's will, who proclaim "Death to all who oppose us!" These mutant beasts go on to Rape, Pillage, and Burn entire cities, seeking to annihilate all life on their world that isn't corrupted by Loc-Nar...luckily, the powerful warrior goddess lady thing Taarna fights back and kills the mutant leader, then confronts Loc-Nar itself for a final duel.
Loc-Nar tries in vain to convince Taarna that she cannot harm it...she proceeds to harm it .3 seconds later, sacrificing herself with all her might to destroy Loc-Nar on her world...which has a ripple effect and annihilates Loc-Nar across all time and space, its essence exploding before the little girl as she gains the power of Taarna herself as a reincarnation, this potential for power being why Loc-Nar had targeted the child in the first place.
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating features?
Nothing sympathetic or redeeming about it in the slighest, it's an entity that delights in corrupting and destroying all around it with amusement.
For agency...really, the only things that remotely imply an issue here is that 1. Loc-Nar's opening line is calling itself "the sum of all evils" and 2. The mere fact that it brings chaos and corruption everywhere it goes.
But yeeeaaah nothing actually verifies that Loc-Nar is Made of Evil or stuck being that way, at all. The "sum of all evils" line is during its Badass Boast to a scared child about how diabolicaaaal it is, and it is obviously deliberately causing tomfoolery everywhere it goes for the sake of evil itself.
It's a Card-Carrying Villain for sure, but Made of Evil to the levels of disqualification under the new rulings, nah.
Heinousness?
Big Bad having a hand in most of the stories' evil, ranging from "vaporizes people for lulz" to "coerces men to rape women and women to betray their lovers" to "is behind every fuckin atrocity in human history, has an island full of zombified victims, and decides to Mind Rape a little girl with visions of all this just to make itself feel like a badass."
Final Verdict?
Thaaaaat's a bingo.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 20th 2021 at 12:37:54 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I just don't get it. They were warned how many times not to do that? Oh, yes to the Loc-Nar...and Ravok has inspired me for a certain Heavy Metal keeper of my own later. It may be who you think. Or...close enough.
So, with updated agency rules, there is one other from Tolkien's Legendarium I wanted to propose, namely from the Silmarillion and with one unique and horrific niche. One of Melkor/Morgoth's chief lieutenants:
Glaurung.
Who is Glaurung?
The first of the dragons, the Father of Dragons, The Great Worm, the Golden...Glaurung's origins are admittedly obscure, but after besieged in his fortress of Angband for centuries, Morgoth went back to the drawing board and began to experiment deep within the bowels of Angband's fortress, where he had created the orcs and other foul beasts. Here is where Glaurung was born by unknown means. Now, whether Glaurung is a corrupted being, some Maiar himself in another form, etc? Is not known...but Glaurung, prideful and furious, burst from Angband and slaughtered his way through the Noldor host.
Still immature, Glaurung was driven back by elven archers. Morgoth held Glaurung in reserve for two more centuries until Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.'' Glaurung, fully mature, armored and at his full height, exploded from Angband...Glaurung massacred everything between Angband and the region of Gelion and in his wake, an army of orcs, Balrogs, etc. ran up to butcher the Hosts of the Noldor. The Noldor's High King, Fingolfin, was so incensed by the deaths of so many that he personally rode to face Morgoth himselfand died in single combat with the Dark Lord.
Glaurung later fought in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, quoting the Sil: "The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart."
However, in a move we call "Foreshadowing," Glaurung massacred the dwarf forces, but their dying King Azaghal stabbed him from below, in his vulnerable underbelly. A badly injured Glaurung was forced into retreat. Glaurung's next infamous act is the battle of Nargothrond, when leading a force of orcs, he first encountered the human warrior Turin Turambar, son of Hurin....Glaurung destroyed everything on his way to Nargothrond, killed the king and had the city massacred, but claimed the riches for his own.
The elven princess of the region, F Induilas, was captured by orcs but when Turin rushed to save her, Glaurung manipulated him, stating his long lost mother and sister were nearby and he could save them...when they'd already left. Finduilas was found pinned to a tree by a spear, dead....the first of Glaurung's machinations against Turin...and later used his powers to wipe Turin's sister Nienor's memory.
Setting up things just right so they'd meet, Glaurung arranged for Turin and Nienor to meet...neither knowing who the other was and falling in love, marrying incestuosly and living as man and wife....intending to massacre Turin's home of Brethil, Turin instead lured Glaurung into a trap and impaled him from below over a crossing...
Nienor found them, Turin unconscious from Glaurung's toxic blood, where Glaurung gives one of the most spiteful and chillingly eloquent lines in the Silmarillion:
"“Hail, Nienor, daughter of Húrin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou has found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Túrin son of Húrin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself.”"
Nienor, you see? Is pregnant. And upon Glaurung's death, with his spells gone...Nienor is so distraught she kills herself. With Turin following soon after, impaling himself on his own sword...
All to fulfill Morgoth's spiteful vengeance against their father Hurin, for his defiance...though I should mention T Olkien spoke of the last battle, when Morgoth returns to destroy the world...and will be slain by none other than Turin himself, avenging the children of Hurin.
Mitigating issues?
I'm not gonna line? Glaurung's bodycount is impressive. Sure, when he gets Nargothrond, he kinda chills there for a few years, on a big pile of treasure, but it's far more active than some other Smaugs we could name...nah, Glaurung gets stuff done. He's an active battle commander who burns and sacks entire regions with mass slaughter all around.
But that's not why we're here, is it? No, the reason is beyond the body count (which is, not gonna lie, substantial)...the ruin of the children of Hurin is so utterly evil and diabolical even by the standards of Morgoth's followers. Glaurung plays Turin to his ruin and arranges for him to marry his amnesiac sister, knowing it will destroy both...sexual crimes are insanely rare in LOTR, with the only other attempters or facilitators being Morgoth who sought to rape Luthien Tinuviel, Sauron who tried to give Luthien to Morgoth earlier, Eol the Dark elf and his son Maeglin (the latter is absolutely heinous enough in deed but loved his mother)...but the whole "made you fuck your brother" thing is pretty unique to Glaurung.
So yeah, props for the most screwed up of crimes here. The other issues...now that agency rules are as they are, the simple fact is nothing ever says Glaurung doesn't have it. He's a dragon, sure, but he's the first dragon with nothing indicating how he was created. Also, the whole "oh, he might be just a vessel for Morgoth's will?" No, Morgoth absolutely tasks Glaurung with ruining the children of Hurin, but Glaurung devises the plans, executes them with sadistic relish and nothing indicates Morgoth is micromanaging, even as he's watching and appreciating it, and forcing Hurin himself to watch.
Conclusion?
I say a yes to Glaurung
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 20th 2021 at 12:43:37 PM
Glaurung, speaking of Tolkien, I wonder why is Book!Sauron under The Silmarillion tree, he also appears in The Lord of the Rings and his writeup includes actions from it.
