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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#279451: Sep 16th 2021 at 12:22:27 PM

The discussion dates page says RK93 has it.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#279452: Sep 16th 2021 at 12:38:53 PM

[tup] Evil Ash, Darren, Lee, Vu and Taker

[tdown] Pew

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#279453: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:32:38 PM

Have a couple for today...the first? From the pen of Stephen King and from his story collection Four Past Midnight...the story "The Library Policeman" The plot is simple, from the trope page: "A man who is struggling to write a speech checks out two books on the subject, and becomes stalked by a strange man, and an equally strange librarian."

Let's talk librarian...Ardelia Lortz

Who is Ardelia Lortz?

Ardelia Lortz is a strange, elderly librarian who delivers an ominous warning that if our hero, Sam Peebles, defies her and keeps a book out too long? "I'll have to send the Library Policeman after you!" triggering...age old fears in poor Sam. Sam delivers his speech, but with the help of administrative assistant Naomi, he learnss that "Ardelia Lortz" murdered tow children and committed suicide decades ago.

Turns out Ardelia isn't human. She's a horrific monster who feeds on the fear of children, tormenting and murdering them while attaching herself to a host. Ardelia was the latest in a long line. Sam begins finding himself threatened by a "Library Policeman" through it all...those around her can be mentally dominated into assisting, a process that leaves them drained and traumatized. Ardelia's old lover, a painter named Dave, is broken by it

It turns out Ardelia is seeking Sam as a host, which is always aware until it's used up, and even worse...the Library Policeman she's drawing on? Is a man who raped Sam as a child, a repressed memory he hides away, in sheer torment, which she brings back up to break him down.

Ardelia comes for them, killing Dave when he breaks her influence to defend the heroes. Dying free even so, Dave buys time and Ardelis is held back...Ardelia is stopped, but attaches herself to Naomi in her true form,a fleshy growth that Sam removes and hurls under the wheels of a train, crushing and finishing off the creature known as Ardelia Lortz for good.

Mitigating issues?

For one story? No, Ardelia is a vampiric monster that feasts on fear and delights in the agony of children. She's vicious, sadistic and has no compunction targeting Sam with memories of his rape as a child. It's...about as nasty as you can possibly get through that. Even Pennywise never pulled that card.

Conclusion?

A yes.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#279454: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:34:00 PM

Kind of funny that we were just talking about King, anyway [tup] Ardelia Lortz.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#279456: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:44:44 PM

[tup]Ardelia

I think this is King's first female cm (sorta.)

Edited by miraculous on Sep 16th 2021 at 1:44:55 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279457: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:44:58 PM

Yes to King's third or fourth "me eat children so me bad"-type candidate. I'll have a King of my own up next...

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#279458: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:46:26 PM

[tup] the Taker of Souls and Ardelia Lortz.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#279459: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:51:42 PM

[tup] Lortz.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#279461: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:00:05 PM

[tup] to Ardelia

@Scraggle

Don't know much about King, so out of curiosity, who are the other eat children candidates? (I know one is Pennywise)

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 16th 2021 at 5:00:50 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#279462: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:03:52 PM

Don't we have that Albert Fish wannabe (and the dude who possesses him)?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#279463: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:03:59 PM

[up][up] The Outsider and the Fisherman.

Edited by Beast on Sep 16th 2021 at 2:04:19 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#279464: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:04:49 PM

Isn't their also the Outsider.

Fun fact the show had him played by....Jason Bateman of all people. (Odd choice).

Edited by miraculous on Sep 16th 2021 at 2:05:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#279465: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:09:49 PM

[tup] to Darren Proffit/the Red King, Henry Lee, Bobby Vu, the Taker of Souls, and Ardelia Lortz.

@43110: The rewrite looks good.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#279468: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:19:27 PM

[tup] for Ardelia Lortz.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#279472: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:40:55 PM

I feel kinda like a jerk for only suggesting it now after this entry's Monster page categorization has been sorted, but I'd like to suggest a mild rewrite of Walter Simmons' recent entry, because I think the current version is discarding relevant, even key details of what makes Simmons qualify as a CM (particularly his relationship with Maia) for some relatively trope-irrelevant encyclopediac details that simply makes the CM entry look more like a biographical summary of the novelization's Adaptation Expansion.

Here's the original version:

In the novelization by Greg Keyes, Walter Simmons, CEO of Apex Cybernetics, is notably worse than his film counterpart. When Godzilla was first revealed to the world, Simmons, aggravated that humanity wasn't the dominant species on Earth, sought to take that title back, with his corporate empire on top. It's revealed he was the one who created the Oxygen Destroyer in an attempt to kill Godzilla. Simmons bribed his way out of accountability for the resulting disaster, and when Sara Hayes tries to reveal Apex's involvement, Simmons had her assassinated. Simmons masterminds the creation of Mechagodzilla, intending to use it to kill and usurp Godzilla as Alpha, killing the Titans they can't enslave, testing it by having it slaughter Skullcrawlers that Apex are breeding. When the test for Mechagodzilla's signal results in Godzilla going on a rampage in Pensacola, Simmons sees this as a stepping stone to turn the world against Godzilla. Simmons then deliberately engineers Godzilla's rampage in Hong Kong, putting millions of innocents on Godzilla's warpath. During Godzilla's rampage, Simmons looks on in excitement, admitting he's counting on Godzilla destroying much of the city so that Apex can be "saviors" when they set Mechagodzilla loose.


And here's a revision I propose (plus some slight reformatting in places where the language is awkward, and removal of some speculation):

In the novelization by Greg Keyes, Walter Simmons, CEO of Apex Cybernetics, is notably worse than his film counterpart. When Godzilla was first revealed to the world, Simmons, aggravated that humanity wasn't the dominant species on Earth, sought to take that title back, with his corporate empire on top. It's revealed he was the one who created the Oxygen Destroyer (a weapon which caused catastrophic ecological damage and destroyed an entire island community's livelihoods) in an attempt to kill Godzilla, and when Sara Hayes tried to reveal Apex's involvement, Simmons had her assassinated. Novelization!Simmons subsequently masterminds the creation of Mechagodzilla, intending to use it to kill and usurp Godzilla as Alpha and then either enslave or exterminate the other Titans, so that he can once more call himself the planet's top dog without anything or anyone in a position to challenge him; and he has his creation tested by slaughtering Skullcrawlers that Apex are breeding. When Mechagodzilla's signal results in Godzilla going on a rampage in Pensacola, Simmons sees this as a stepping stone to turn the world against Godzilla. Simmons displays little in the way of actual care for his daughter Maia despite having high faith in her; sending her on a dangerous mission to the Hollow Earth and keeping her in the dark on certain key details to see if she's worthy to inherit his corporate empire. Simmons deliberately engineers Godzilla's rampage in Hong Kong, putting millions of innocents on Godzilla's warpath. During Godzilla's rampage, Simmons looks on in excitement, admitting he's counting on Godzilla destroying much of the city so that Apex can be "saviors" when they set Mechagodzilla loose. A Faux Affably Evil, narcissistic corporate big shot; Simmons stands out amongst the human antagonists of the MonsterVerse, including his Dragon Ren, for his lack of a Freudian Excuse and his horribly shallow motives for manipulating and engineering the deaths of thousands to millions of people.

What do others on here think?

Edited by Derv0sB2 on Sep 16th 2021 at 2:43:00 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#279473: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:43:29 PM

I'll let Beast comment on it in full (since he proposed Simmons I think), but if nothing else that rewrite is way too long.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#279474: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:43:32 PM

That is incredibly long, especially with the summary sentence at the end (but even without it, it'd be too long). If there could be some kind of middle ground then sure, but for now keep the old entry.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#279475: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:47:05 PM

I can take a look at cutting it back later if there’s an actual issue with the substance. I say if because sometimes I know we can get caught up in the how of a crime is written without it actually being as noteworthy as we personally think.


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