During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Image picking for Jack Reacher
is open. Anyone like to come?
EDIT: Still thinking
Sturm
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 12th 2021 at 10:36:10 AM
Watch me destroying my countrySo today I finished Scarlet Nexus, and since no one called dibs on it for this trope and the MB trope, I will discuss them. So spoilers for the story and whatnot.
Unfortunately no one seems to count. Most of the villains have a redeeming quality which prevents them from qualifying as a CM.
Karen is a very sympathetic villain who is opposed to tyranny and the experiments done on human turned Others.
Joe Sumeragi, even though he was the one having humans turned into Others and experimented on while also running New Himuka as a dictatorship, did actually love his wife and sons.
Kaito, the Chief of the OSF and Yuito's older brother who followed in his father's footsteps, also did care about his family, and wanted to avenge his mother's death by destroying Togetsu.
Togetsu themselves want to rewind time and prevent the Moon Colony from re-colonizing Earth and have very unethical practices by mass producing artificial humans to serve as slaves, created Kasane and tried to torture and break her psychologically to activate the Red Strings, but they don't appear to have much agency given that they follow the orders of a long gone founder and a supercomputer that doesn't really have self-awareness.
The only characters who have no redeeming qualities are Kodama and Yuta Melone, who are responsible for turning psionics into Others so that New Himuka that experiment on them. Unlike their superiors, they take sadistic pleasure in their work and are clearly having the time of their life trying to kill the main characters. Yuta also seems to want to turn Kasane into her "toy" and became obsessed with her after seeing her defeat her sister.
The problem however with the Melone twins is they disappear from the story once their twist is revealed, and they don't really have many heinous acts to really make them stand out, like New Himuka and Togetsu have done far more fucked up stuff than the Twins have. Now while there is going to be DLC content, none of it I believe will be story related.
So unfortunately I don't think anyone counts. Based on what I've said, would you agree?
Edited by RaynForce58 on Sep 12th 2021 at 8:58:40 AM
I have a rather unfortunate cut to propose but one that I think is necessary. That being Omar Bahir from Criminal Case, for reference here is his entry:
- Omar Bahir is a professor specializing in Ancient Arabic. While he may seem sociable and polite, he is, in truth, a SOMBRA agent. As The Sword, Omar manipulates rebels into overthrowing their rulers, the end goal being to incite a massive war culminating in the Sahara Region becoming a cell for the nefarious organization. When the Bureau becomes involved, Omar shoots Chief Elizabeth Ripley with a poison dart, seemingly killing her. In a scheme to draw the Bureau out, Omar coerces a harmless tribe leader into helping him kidnap 8-year-old Andrew Stern, only to decapitate him once he had no further use for him. Armand Dupont's life is also placed in critical danger when he is exposed to the poison on the murder weapon. Omar finalizes this by attempting to kill Carmen and the player with a poisonous grenade. Charismatic and manipulative, Omar stands as one of the most dangerous of the Bureau's adversaries.
He was originally EP'ed
by Austin DR and I can see why he did, while he wasn't the worst villain at the time he was definitely a standout but many years later and with Criminal Case having ended recently I am not convinced that he meets the heinous standard anymore (which has been massively jacked up). First of all, though let's take a look at Omar's crimes:
- Attempting to start a war in the Sahara Region to become a cell for SOMBRA.
- Nearly killing Chief Ripley with a poison dart.
- Kidnapping and a child and later decapitating the man who helped him.
- Putting Armand Dupont's life in danger.
- Trying to murder the player and Carmen.
While his crimes are extremely awful they are not even close to unique to him, nearly every criminal case villain is a murderer and he is not the only one who kidnapped a child, Ad Astra for instance. There are also multiple other terrorists in the franchise some of which are far worse than he could ever dream of being with even less resources.
The biggest problem at least in my mind though is that the crime of attempting to start a war is no longer unique to him, Graham Winslow, Morgana Blackhawk, The Demon Queen and Roxxane Vega all wanted to start wars too and so did SOMBRA later on, all four wanted to do it on a far larger scale. Omar also doesn't have any unique niche to make him stand out at all compared to them. This isn't even getting into the literal Supervillains that the franchise introduces that jacks the standard up even further, there are Omnicidal Maniacs, twisted human experimenters, war criminals, attempted country destroyers and Serial Killers all exist many times throughout the franchise.
With this in mind, I think that Omar should be cut, if he is kept that is fine but at the very least I think this is an important discussion to have as the standard has massively been jacked up. Also If he is kept I think the last sentence can be chopped.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 12th 2021 at 9:42:04 AM
Meh, I don't care if he's cut of the trying to start a war to merge it as a cell into a terrorist organization isn't unique just to him. Honestly, maybe we should reevaluate our current keepers as well.
Like I am fine with Patil since he tried to shoot for a body count on the millions with the virus.
Edited by AustinDR on Sep 12th 2021 at 9:24:28 AM
Let me be a bit clear I am not saying that trying to start a war is a super common crime the bigger issue I have is it is no longer unique to him with other villains attempting it on a far larger scale with less resources, we do have rules about second place not working unless the villain goes out of his way to disinguish himself.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 12th 2021 at 9:45:07 AM
I am fine with finishing it, but I don't really see how that would be a problem in this case, Omar doesn't stand out from the villains that have already appeared IMO, and he isn't going to appear again and get worse and the heinous standard will only get higher not lower.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 12th 2021 at 9:54:36 AM

Another for Christopher Sabat?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."