During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cut Kanryuu.
Cut Kanryuu.
I have a question. Since the anime ended up taking a very different course from the manga, could we put up his anime version? If not, that's fine, I just thought I'd ask.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Sep 9th 2021 at 12:46:45 PM
One I had pending for a while. Thanks for Ravok and Scraggle for the feedback.
What's the work?
Undertaker is a French western comic book by Xavier Dorrisson and Ralph Meyer. It stars Jonas Crow, a traveling undertaker, who's wanted for several murders he's believed to have committed at the end of the Civil War. After his first adventure, he's joined by the English governess Rose Prairie and Chinese servant Lin who has a dark past as well.
The candidate is from the second arc The Ogre of Camp Sutter / The Shadow of Hippocrates. In it, Jonas crosses paths with an old friend Colonel Warwick who reveals that their old enemy, the Ogre of Camp Sutter, is still alive and holding his son hostage.
Who is he?
Jeronimus Quint is a brilliant doctor and surgeon who saves the life of many patients and heals the poors for free. He also concocted a miraculous elixir and actively search how to make transplants.
Nobody is perfect though. Quint is also a serial killer and torturer who uses his knowledge of the body to maximize the pain of his patients and gets off hearing their agonizing screams.
What has he done?
Earning infamy during the civil war in 1864 at Sutter Camp, Quint needlessly tortures the wounded soldiers he's in charge of. When Colonel Warwick got a bullet to his arm, Quint amputated the whole limb pretending that it was to prevent gangrene even though the wound was clean. After leaving Warwick to suffer for a whole day, Quint then chloroformed him and sewed someone else's arm that soon turned black and hatched maggots.
Jonas attempted to stop him when he was torturing a confederate woman. The prick manages to talk him out of it, threatening the life of the woman and reminding him that his comrades need his talents.
Reportedly, after the war Quint was arrested, tried and executed but according to Colonel Warwick either the execution never happened or the Oger framed someone else for his crimes.
Either way, Jeronimus resurfaces years later. Learning to be more careful, Quint travels from town to town to offer his services and selling his potions while keeping torturing patients and even killing some once in while always meticullous about not leaving bodies behind.
Learning about the surgeon's survival, Warwick sent his own son Danny to stop him. Unfortunately, the latter never returned.
The Villain Opening Scene shows Quint about to torment his latest victim. Anyway, Jonas and his companions catch Quint but the prick deliberately wounds Rose's arm to ensure his own survival because he's the only one around who can heal her or else she will die from the infection in a few days.
Later, Quint confesses to Warwick that he already killed his son Danny - not before torturing him at length - and then drives the colonel into finding the dismembered corpse in his trailer. Angered, Warwick tries to kill the murderer but is stopped by Jonas who still wants him to save Rose.
After a fight, Quint proceeds to torture Jonas by opening his old wound in his leg but the Undertaker is saved in time by Lin. Quint then compels Rose to escape with him.
To slow down Jonas and Lin, the oger sabotages a ferry boat resulting in its wreck. Jonas and Lin survive but not the captain.
Invited by a couple, Quint brutalizes and stabs the husband in the belly in order to compel the wife into killing Jonas in exchange of healing the poor guy. Luckily, she complies but fails in her task.
Eventually, Quint decides to heal Rose's arm and dumps her on the road hoping that Crow will have no reason to go after him.
Quint arrives at a sawmill conveniently after its steam engine exploded resulting in a dozen of injured workers. Jonas speculates that Quint might have engineered the accident to keep the patients as potential hostages though it's never confirmed. Unfortunately, the doctor successfully frames Jonas and Rose for theft, imprisoning them both.
In the cell, Quint gleefully announces to Jonas his intention of torturing Rose to death then amputating Jonas' leg and arm and maybe ripping off his tongue as well. Luckily, Lin releases Jonas and the latter stop Quint as he was about to butcher the girl.
Quint is eventually arrested for his crimes by the cavalry although according to Lin they will probably keep him alive to benefits from his talents.
Freudian Excuse?
Invoked. He tells Rose that his father - also a surgeon - made him attend his operations forcing him to watch and listen. If he tried to put his finger in his ear, his dad would rip off his nails. This sob story leaves Rose speechless. That is until Quint smiles and quips "Or perhaps my parents were honest grocers who never once raised a hand against me? But that would disturb you more, wouldn't it?"
Yeah.
Other Mitigating Factors?
It is worth talking about it. The Oger cultivates the image of a Villain with Good Publicity and is renowned for his humanitarian work. This is all for Pragmatic Villainy rather than out of the goodness of his heart. Every time he does something benevolent, it's because he wants people to be in his debt. He eventually heals Rose's hand but then attempts to kill her at the very next opportunity.
He argues that he saved more people than he killed and that Jonas has a bigger body count which in fairness might be true.
In private with Rose, Quint however displays some god complex believing he has the right to give life or death. He argues that "ordinary rules don't apply to me. The laws of cockroaches don't apply to lions" and finally confesses having no well intentioned goal: "I could tell you that I've seen ten of thousands die for nothing, and that at least my bodies serve a purpose... that my attempts at transplants are all in the name of science... The truth is that when people take you for a monster, there's only one thing left for you to do... exceed their expectation! "
Heinousness
This is a dark series. Jonas Crow himself is definitely no saint and is on the run for the murder of 36 people under yet undisclosed circunstances.
Joe Cusco from the first arc is also a prick who exploited his citizens (including children) into working in mines in terrible conditions and sexually abused Rose among other things. Sid Beauchamp from the third arc also poisoned and massacred some natives
But I think the Ogre makes it for being a lone nasty torturer with shits for ressources others than his tools.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Yes to Quint and Cut Kanryuu...Huh
The First man
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Quint
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Quint, even if his dad IS a surgeon that hardly counts as a good Freudian Excuse
Edited by RobertTYL on Sep 9th 2021 at 6:50:23 PM
to the Beast and Quint. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Goodwill and Kanryuu.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Quint; cut the Kenshin dude.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to The Beast and Jeronimus Quint.
Goku Black
Quint
Kanryuu (Huh that's something)
Quint.
Cut Kanryuu.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Jeronimus Quint
Kanryuu, well that was unexpected
Messenger from another dimension.
Wanna propose a cut; a villain I myself proposed a year or two ago. Malagant from ‘’First Knight’’. Can’t provide his write up because I post from I Phone. However, burning villages, while pretty heinous, this isn’t very much shown; we don’t even see him slaughtering civilians. It’s only beggining scene, and we just see him on a horse and one wooden building burning. And invading Camelot and wanting to kill Arthur? Pretty standard. “Burn Camelot to the ground!” Honestly, if maybe he actually engage in civilian slaughter, I wouldn’t mind him being up; but just wanting to burn your enemy’s castle is also pretty standard. I have to advocate for a cut.
Edited by emperors on Sep 9th 2021 at 9:54:31 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Um, I asked a question about maybe putting up Kanryuu's anime counterpart, since the anime took a very different direction from the manga. If that wouldn't work, that's okay, I just thought I might as well bring it up.
Messenger from another dimension.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
if the Anime counterpart Hassan no redeeming qualities and is heinous, sure he can be added since it sounds like a different incarnation of same character.
No, it's an exact adaptation. That feels like cheating
Messenger from another dimension.
I mean, he said Anime took different approach... but I am not familliar with the story.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
The anime doesn't "take a different approach," it just has a lot of fillr.
Messenger from another dimension.
Ok. In that case no to both versions.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
The wifi here sucks
IF it tells the same general story then we're not differentiating it from the manga, that's not how we do things.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Having read it, yes to Quint, easily. Reprehensible piece of work.
I'm fine with chopping Malagant. I was a weak yes to him to begin with and I have no issue buying he flunks the standard on a rewatch.
I don't know if this changes anything, but the scene where he mentions he'll use money to change laws rather than do things illegally seems to be mostly played for humor, as it happens while he's running as fast as he can in an undignified manner to be as far away from Aoshi as possible.
The story definitely seems to be going for "He's still a scumbag, but he's at least humbled a little and has a tiny bit of decency."
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Sep 9th 2021 at 12:14:03 PM