During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Anyways, after getting that off my chest. I do have a new RuneScape candidate to add to the page. This one is unique as he in no way counts in the normal version of the game as he has a few redeeming qualities, but the Old School version of the game emulates the old 2007 engine and regularly adds new content. One such addition pushes my candidate into Complete Monster territory.
Who is Glough (Old School Version)?
Glough is a tree gnome, a race of small tree dwelling humanoids who have a knack for highly advanced technology and diplomacy. Regardless, they have often been in conflict with the surrounding races due to seeming like easy pickings. Much to their enemies' surprise, gnomes are masters of bows, illusions, and animal taming which make them incredibly formidable indeed. Glough is the head tree tender at the Tree Gnome Stronghold and is the primary caretaker of the Grand Tree, in which much of the population lives. Unlike most gnomes, Glough is incredibly misanthropic and despises humanity as he sees them as aggressors constantly seeking to expand their borders and eventually make war of gnomekind. This feeling isn't entirely unfounded, as he notes in his private journal that the gnomes in the Tree Gnome Village to the south are currently engaged in a bloody war with the human forces of the warlord Khazard. This hate soon becomes overwhelming when a human diplomat tries to play along with gnome pranks and throws a pie at Glough, becoming a catalyst for his plans of conquest and genocide.
In The Grand Tree, the gnome king Nardode Shareen hires the player to discover why the Grand Tree is dying, and clues lead to finding a human named Charlie had stolen the sacred Daconia rocks that can be used to slowly poison the tree. In truth, Glough had actually hired the man to steal the rocks and plant them in the roots so that he could blame mankind on trying to wage war on the gnomes to justify to the king to retaliate. After getting the king to initially agree, the player tracks Glough's agents to a shipyard on the coast of the jungle island Karamja. There they discover Glough has been building a massive armada of ships that he intended to use to lead his people to a surprise attack on the three main human kingdoms and slaughter every last man, woman, and child they could find. Glough's invasion plans even explicitly orders no survivors, so he's seeking complete extermination of the human race. They player finds out this information and goes to investigate his home, where Glough lures them into a trap where he sics a pet demon on them. After defeating it, the player finds the rocks in the roots which proves more than enough evidence for the king to call off the attack and arrest and strip Glough of his position.
In Monkey Madness I, the player is again hired to find out what happened to the elite gnome 10th squad that was being sent to decommission the ship yard, but disappeared along the way. The 10th squad's gliders were blown off course and they crashed landed on a mysterios island called Ape Atoll populated by hostile sentient monkeys. Coincidentally enough, the very same monkeys are in the middle of forming an alliance with Glough's agents while he's imprisoned. The player helps rescue the 10th squad by creating a magic item that transforms them into a monkey and uncovers Glough's plot with the monkey King Awowogei to unite their forces and again attack mankind. After killing another demon Glough sends after them, the player warns Kind Nardode of the coming alliance. This is where the story drops off in the current game, but picks up again in Old School with the sequel being the very first quest they released in that version.
In Monkey Madness II, the player learns that Glough escaped from his house arrest and has fled the Stronghold. Hired for the final time to find Glough and foil his plot, the player questions Glough's girlfriend Anita to his location and eventually discover he was smuggled out via hot air balloon to Ape Atoll. The player disguises themselves and talks with the monkey king who reveals Glough brokered further alliances with the troll and ogres to serve as meat shields and cannon fodder in the coming invasion. After the player brakes those alliances, they find Glough is building a fleet of airships off the coast and also testing a secret weapon deep below the atoll. After setting bombs on the airships, the player infiltrates Glough's secret lab in disguise and discovers the terrible secret weapon the proves even the monkeys aren't safe from Glough's schemes.
Glough has designed a demonic mutagen that he has been experimenting with on tortured gorillas in order to increase their savagery and aggression while also keeping them under his control. He states that while he currently only has a handful of test subjects, he is working on turning the mutagen airborne to infect the entire atoll and turn the sentient monkeys into his demonic, tortured slaves. After the monkey king calls off the invasion and alliance, Glough flies off with his test subjects to perform one final deadly assault on those he now considers most worthy of his hate. Does he lead the attack on Ape Atoll or one of the human kingdoms he professed to despising? Nope. Glough aims his final act of spite toward the Tree Gnome Stronghold, as he considers his own people unworthy of living after they refuse to wage war on humanity. The bombs go off and cause the airship to crash, spreading demonic gorillas throughout the Stronghold, and the player helps to fight them off and corners Glough in a cave he retreated to. Furious at the human who keeps foiling his plans, Glough injects himself with the mutagen and turns into a demonic giant that serves as the final boss of the quest. Eventually, Glough is defeated and killed in a cave-in, while the gnomes and monkeys broker a new alliance of peace instead of war.
Any mitigating factors?
In the base game, Glough doesn't count because the events of the third quest didn't happen. He still cares about the gnomes to an extent, even if he poisoned the Grand Tree in both versions, and still has a girlfriend he cares about. All of that is thrown away in the Old School version where his hatred and misanthropy become so overwhelming that he wants to wipe out his own kind for daring to ally with humanity. Of course, his girlfriend would have also died in the attack on the Stronghold, so there goes that redeeming quality as well.
Heinous Standard?
Runescape has become a dark game over the years with the fate of the whole world being constantly tested in the current story arcs, but that's by powerful divine beings. Glough is just a hateful little man that more than manages to stack up with other mortal monsters in the setting like Lathas, Iorwerth, or Sigmund. Genocide is still a very serious crime in the game, on top on the torture and unethical experimentation he gets up to in the finale.
Final Verdict?
, I think that makes an easy number 9 for Runescape.
Happy to talk on Lockdown if it's needed. And the concerns are all totally reasonable. With Attinger at least, I can't really see him as Worse, and I don't personally think them sharing Major crimes is an issue, even with the Crimes they share lockdown Tends to be more 'Hands on', he is actually in the Field participating in the Semetary Wind Hunts, or doing the Killings as we see with Ratchet, and while Attinger gives him the Go to wreck Hong Kong.....Lockdown is the one who actually, does it, and while both have Bonus crimes, Lockdowns are, IMO worse. With the aforementioned stuff with his Ships trash section, Lucas death and such.
Plus while Attinger is indeed low tier compared to most villains and Lockdown I should point out he's not at a Super low tier either, he's 'Just' Human yes, but he's a Human who's a high ranking part of the Govermant and backed by a Major company, and the fact he has Lockdown as an 'Asset', and needs him to do most of the Stuff he does, and he has the KSI-Formers makes it questionable how 'Human level' he's operating.
Basically while Lockdown is at a higher tier then Attinger, it's not to a Crazy Degree, and for how much more he DOES have he's appropriately worse.
I should point out in addition to having an Army, Galvatron is also more then just 'Hulking Mechanical monster' in this, the KSI Formers are Explicitly meant to be more advanced then there 'Normal' Counterparts.
And I don't think Villainy like Lockdowns is super common for the Series, Mass murder is common Yes but based both on Memory and looking back at Clips of the Films, usually on there own Its more 'Shoots up a Military base' or 'Kills a bunch of Guards'. 'Destroys Cars while fighting in the Street or a Building' and such.
Lockdown helps kill an Army's worth of Transformers, has a pattern of having killed a Bunch more, and his assault on Hong Kong triples the usual amounts of destruction we get, in addition to smaller Crimes.
City fights do Happen and do have Damage, but they're usually done with Groups and even then usually aren't as bad as we see of Lockdowns assault, with the exception of stuff like the Battle of Chicago wich took an entire Armada, hell the one in this very movie With Galvatrons forces doesn't cause as much damage as we see Lockdown do. And that's not even all Lockdowns working with as he also has his high bodycount from before this.
Just my 2 cents personally, and I think the Counterpoints are Logical, I think Lockdown pushes really damn Hard for what he's got.
EDIT:Annnd my dumbass just realized I've misspelled Cemetery for like several pages now. Not even gonna change it, just, listing this here to make it clear I noticed.
Edited by Snoketrope on Sep 1st 2021 at 11:16:45 AM
Bow to the Prototype'Yes' to Marshall and Glough
I think I'm gonna settle on a Yes for Lockdown. It's a minor one, but I think he does enough with what he's got and his personal bodycount is one of the highest in the franchise, plus signing over his own species to be turned into ghoulish slaves of Attinger's.
Gonna snag The Greentown Project film for discussion.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Abstain on Lockdown.
Yes to Area 10 duo; Kim; Gothmog (God, I remember Azog; that was one of the more...let's just say lively debates; but with that precedent Gothmog's fine); Marshall (holy hell what is it with Zenescope and karma houdinis?); Glough.
Even Krueger and Myers got killed in the end (Joker Immunity aside).
Okay, some housekeeping issues:
- Elfes et Nains just needs a header, and then is probably good to go (I sent Silverblade a PM).
- The Texas Chainsaw Massacre just needs Drayton's writeup (and maybe a better quote?).
- Monster Stargateverse...Should we just Cut List it for now?
- Queen Nehellenia...Doesn't seem like Largo's been active on either the forums OR any other pages since July...Anyone else know the work well enough to write the queen up, or should I just remove it from the to-do?
So I guess for the Tolkien film stuff, it'll be:
- Peter Jackson's trilogies have Sauron himself and several members of his forces:
- Sauron
- The Hobbit trilogy: Azog
- The Lord of the Rings trilogy:
- Saruman
- The Return of the King: Gothmog

Edited by nwotyzal on Sep 1st 2021 at 8:59:01 AM