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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27501: Jul 7th 2014 at 11:45:23 AM

Yes, Attinger needed the Seed in order to have Joyce produce the man-made Transformers, that's why he got so hostile when Joyce refused.

edited 7th Jul '14 11:55:35 AM by VeryMelon

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#27502: Jul 7th 2014 at 11:50:51 AM

Ah, well in that case I'll change my vote to a yes for Attinger.

edited 7th Jul '14 11:51:04 AM by OccasionalExister

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#27503: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:08:38 PM

@ Morgenthaler, according to imdb, the gangleader from Dirty Laundry is called Gold Tooth. You should probably put that name in the writeup.

@ Cakeman, Of course Syndrome's backstory is no excuse, that does not mean he is a CM. Just because you are not a CM does not mean you are not a villain.

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27504: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:09:01 PM

Wait, Attinger, the guy who thought all Transformers were bad was willing to use a bomb and kill a lot of (all of?) people...to create Transformers of his own? If so, change my vote to a definite [tup].

edited 7th Jul '14 12:09:47 PM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27505: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:27:10 PM

6 votes for Lockdown and Harold Attinger. Now for the write-ups.

  • Lockdown is a Bounty Hunter who holds himself above the Autobot/Decepticon war and sees both sides as squabbling children that he has to reign in personally, and doesn't think much higher of other civilized species across the galaxy (particularly humans). Lockdown helped Cemetery Wind take down Ratchet and demanded Optimus' location from him. When Ratchet refuses, Lockdown ripped his spark from his chest, killing him. Lockdown later aided in the search for Optimus, fighting him across Paris, Texas, but eventually lost him, killing Cade Yeager's friend Lucas along the way. After capturing Optimus Lockdown gives Cemetery Wind the Seed, an alien bomb that he knows will kill all of humanity once they activate it, as "paymemnt" for their aid. After figuring out that Optimus escaped his ship, an enraged Lockdown returns to Earth hellbent on re-collecting his trophy Optimus, dead or alive, first by using a magnetic weapon on his ship to pull vehicles into the air and drop them on the Autobots, then by confronting Optimus in a fight to the death.

  • Harold Attinger created "Cemetery Wind", a black-ops group taking it upon itself to wipe out all Transformers upon the planet regardless of faction, out of nothing more than Attinger's Fantastic Racism. Attinger entered a deal between himself, Lockdown, and Joshua Joyce's Kinetic Solutions Incorporated where Lockdown gives the remains of any Transformer he murders to Joyce for production into man-made transformers, and Attinger would trade Optimus for the Seed needed to create more man-made transformers to sell to the US Army. This and Attinger's own attempts to kill any humans who could get in his way such as Tessa Yaeger by proxy of his Dragon Savoy or Cade Yaeger at his own hand , as well as ordering Savoy to murder witnesses to his presence in Hong Kong, makes it clear Attinger is a Straw Hypocrite out to get rich.

edited 7th Jul '14 3:33:48 PM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27506: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:34:47 PM

Hmm, we're going to need to work on the Transformers monster page...Anyway, I'll edit those tonight or maybe tomorrow.

edited 7th Jul '14 12:35:23 PM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27507: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:38:59 PM

With Dylan Gould up on Monster.Transformers, you'll have to ask for a live-action movie header like this: Live-Action Films

edited 7th Jul '14 12:40:21 PM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27508: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:51:13 PM

[up]Yup. BTW, does Attinger know that he'll be wiped out too? And is he a Straw Hypocrite or a regular one?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27509: Jul 7th 2014 at 12:54:51 PM

Given his resources, I can only assume he could get himself to safety when the bomb went off. I'd call him a regular Hypocrite, nothing about his character feels straw-mannish to me.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27510: Jul 7th 2014 at 1:24:53 PM

[up]Straw Hypocrite doesn't mean strawman. It refers to a character who doesn't believe their own ideology.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#27512: Jul 7th 2014 at 2:12:24 PM

Continuing with Gaim, I think Mitsuzane might be slightly wobblier as a candidate than Saiya is suggesting. This is because the arc is actively exploring whether he is a CM or not - it's playing up his internal conflict over where he wants to go (he keeps trying to paint himself to himself and everyone else as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and nobody's buying it), the heroes are debating whether he can be saved or not, and Redyue has been shown to be trying to turn him into a monster like her (because she thinks the way it would make his sanity go snap is hilarious). The latest episode was a major turning point in which he apparently killed his brother Takatora after being challenged to a duel, and ends with him staring at the water Takatora fell into, his reaction unclear. How he responds to this in the next episode is likely going to determine whether he's completely monstrous or not.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#27513: Jul 7th 2014 at 2:33:14 PM

Seeing as how I never got to participate in the Syndrome discussion, I'll just say this. Fighteer made a very good case as to why he shouldn't qualify. His backstory doesn't exactly mitigate anything though. Frankly I'm appalled that people are still bringing him up after Fighteer made such a good case why he shouldn't be included.

Anyone else want to vote on Metal Face or should I request he be added to the Video Game page under Zanza? Here's his entry with the fix included:

Metal Face, also formerly known as Mumkhar. The very first thing he does is ditch his friends in battle and supposedly gets himself killed. When he returns as Metal Face, he starts by murdering the protagonist's beloved girlfriend Fiora, who's also the sister of his former war colleague, setting in motion the mass slaughter of the people of Colony 9. Showing no remorse, Metal Face later reflects on the lovely sounds of Fiora's screams.Shortly thereafter, he throws the country of Entia into chaos by killing its High Emperor before slaughtering almost every member of Colony 6. If that wasn't enough, he's also one of the ones in charge of morphing his victims into slave mooks. He's a nasty brute with no redeeming qualities who will stop at nothing to make sure his former comrade Dunban suffers to the full extent of his power. Even his own boss Egil is horrified at Metal Face's excessive atrocities and his eventual destruction is mourned by none.

Also did anyone think Bhunivelze from Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII qualifies? I haven't played the game, but I assume he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist like Caius and Barthandelus.

edited 7th Jul '14 2:37:28 PM by Klavice

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27514: Jul 7th 2014 at 3:30:56 PM

Here we go. First Metal Face, then the Transformers baddies.

  • Metal Face is formerly known as Mumkhar. The very first thing he does is ditch his friends in battle and supposedly gets himself killed. When he returns as Metal Face, he starts by murdering the protagonist's beloved girlfriend Fiora, who's also the sister of his former war colleague, setting in motion the mass slaughter of the people of Colony 9. Showing no remorse, Metal Face later reflects on the lovely sounds of Fiora's screams. Shortly thereafter, he throws the country of Entia into chaos by killing its High Emperor before slaughtering almost every member of Colony 6. If that wasn't enough, he's also one of the ones in charge of morphing his victims into slave mooks. He's a nasty brute with no redeeming qualities who will stop at nothing to make sure his former comrade Dunban suffers to the full extent of his power. Even his own boss Egil is horrified at Metal Face's excessive atrocities and his eventual destruction is mourned by none.
  • Lockdown is a Bounty Hunter who holds himself above the Autobot/Decepticon war and sees both sides as squabbling children that he has to reign in personally, and doesn't think much higher of other civilized species across the galaxy (particularly humans). Lockdown helped Cemetery Wind take down Ratchet and demanded Optimus's location from him. When Ratchet refuses, Lockdown ripped his spark from his chest, killing him. Lockdown later aided in the search for Optimus, fighting him across Paris, Texas, but eventually lost him, killing Cade Yeager's friend Lucas along the way. After capturing Optimus, Lockdown gives Cemetery Wind the Seed, an alien bomb that he knows will kill all of humanity once they activate it, as "payment" for their aid. After figuring out that Optimus escaped his ship, Lockdown returns to Earth hell-bent on re-collecting his trophy Optimus, dead or alive; first by using a magnetic weapon on his ship to pull vehicles into the air and drop them on the Autobots, and then by confronting Optimus in a fight to the death.
  • CIA agent Harold Attinger created "Cemetery Wind," a black-ops group taking it upon itself to wipe out all Transformers upon the planet regardless of faction, out of nothing more than Attinger's Fantastic Racism. Attinger entered a deal between himself, Lockdown, and Joshua Joyce's Kinetic Solutions Incorporated where Lockdown gives the remains of any Transformer he murders to Joyce for production into man-made Transformers, and Attinger would trade Optimus for the Seed needed to create more man-made transformers to sell to the US Army. At first, Attinger may come across as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but given that he worked with Lockdown, wanted to create Transformers of his own, would have millions if not more innocents killed by The Seed, and Attinger's own attempts to kill any humans who could get in his way such as Tessa Yaeger by proxy of his Dragon Savoy or Cade Yaeger at his own hand , as well as ordering Savoy to murder witnesses to his presence in Hong Kong, it is clear Attinger is merely a Straw Hypocrite out to get rich.

[nja]Page topper. Awesome cool

[nja][down]Fixed. I just made it "Lockdown returns..."

edited 7th Jul '14 3:49:00 PM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27515: Jul 7th 2014 at 3:36:12 PM

Write-up tweaks are good, but there's a typo wit the "and" before "enraged", that's supposed to be the word "an".

[up][tup]

edited 7th Jul '14 4:05:39 PM by VeryMelon

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#27516: Jul 7th 2014 at 5:37:39 PM

@ Icolus: The moment he attacked Kouta with full killing intent kind of sealed his Complete Monster placement, and fighting his brother and seemily killing him with no hesitation also shows it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27517: Jul 7th 2014 at 8:34:24 PM

Right, I'm going to request the Metal Face, Lockdown and Attinger write-ups be added.

edited 7th Jul '14 8:36:54 PM by VeryMelon

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#27518: Jul 7th 2014 at 9:18:39 PM

Found this on With Big Shells and Wings:

  • Complete Monster: Dracolin, a sadistic dragon who enjoys burning, torturing, devouring, and tormenting others just because it's fun. Plus he likes grossing out others with childish scatological humor. What's mostly disturbing about Dracolin is that he takes pleasure in scaring little Yoshi children, almost to a point where he comes across as a pedophile. He even crushes one of them to death and then brags to the dead Yoshi's friends how wonderful it felt killing her. To top all that off, it's implied more than once that Dracolin has a Fetish for crushing small creatures.

Might be a keep.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27519: Jul 7th 2014 at 9:33:47 PM

Somebody added some natter underneath the CM entry on the YMMV for Psych, located here. Before I cut it, is what they said true, and if so does the entry need a rewrite?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#27520: Jul 8th 2014 at 2:35:55 AM

I'd like to propose a new writeup for the villain of "The Flight Before Christmas" , Black Wolf. I was the one who originally expanded his description, who someone had added as a ZCE. When it was added, I was fine with the intial rewrite, but in doing so, you kinda glossed over his more evil acts, adding in the fact that I got some details wrong myself. Also, the Complete Monster page for Fan Works... it really needs to be cleaned up. There are a bunch of Zero Content Examples, non-specific entries, and villains that don't fulfill every qualification to be a Monster. Mayhaps someone could help me with that.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#27521: Jul 8th 2014 at 3:25:03 AM

I suspect Fan Works is such a problem because some of the people here really seem to hate dealing with the darkfic examples - which I think there's actually a certain justification to, although obviously not enough to leave the subpage unchecked.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27522: Jul 8th 2014 at 4:53:40 AM

@ Occasional Exister: Here's a full list of Wyatt's crimes:

Wyatt Mathewson is a professional hitman working for the company under its leader General Krantz.

  • He kills James Whistler and captures Gretchen, both company agents who were working against Krantz.
  • He was going to kill Gretchen Morgan, but instead locks her up in a small room and tortures Gretchen for days until she escapes.
  • He's given clearance to kill Mahone, Michael, Lincoln, Sarah, Sucre, Bellick, and everyone else who was connected to James Whistler.
  • He takes Mahone's wife Pam and his son Cameron hostage. He kills Cameron to piss off Mahone. After the kid is already dead, he blows his head off to mutilate the corpse just to spite him further.
  • He takes a correction officer's girlfriend hostage and threatens to kill her if she doesn't give him the information he wants. It's not shown if he let either of them go or not, but he's so fond of screwing people over even if they do give him what he wants that I wouldn't consider it plausible.
  • He takes Bruce Bennet hostage (Sara's dead father's former aide), injects him with truth serum and tortures him before killing him with a lethal injection after getting the info he wants.
  • He tries to murder Mahone during a court hearing.
  • He's given intel on Scofield and his crew by the Sixth Ranger Traitor Roland. He promises to give him 1,000,000 USD and let him go in exchange for the others. Once there, Wyatt successively shoots Roland in the knee cap, then his thigh, and then in his stomach to watch him bleed out before planning to kill the rest.

@ bobg: I've added the gangleader's name to the write-up.

I want to make a slight change to the write-up for Freddy Krueger. I realized that there's a final crime in the chronologically last film, Freddy's Dead, that deserves mentioning: Freddy reaches the pinnacle of his depravity when he's reduced all of Springwood to a complete ruin by murdering every child in the town limits and turning the surviving parents into insane, hollow shells of their former selves. Then he announces his plan to spread to other towns and repeat the process ad infinituum.

edited 8th Jul '14 2:24:28 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#27523: Jul 8th 2014 at 7:43:05 AM

Nice seeing you here, LostGod2000.

edited 8th Jul '14 7:43:29 AM by AustinDR

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#27524: Jul 8th 2014 at 10:47:50 AM

The Millennium Trilogy examples are poorly formated, this should be an improvement.

  • The Millennium Trilogy:
    • The first book, The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, has Martin Vanger who is the likable CEO of a family corporation. He is troubled since his sister vanished long ago. He also comes across as a nice guy and saves the protagonist's life in the movie. In the end, however, Martin reveals his true colors: he is a serial killer, who has been torturing, raping and murdering hundreds of women since he was a teenager. His chilling explanation is: "This is every man's innermost dream. I take what I want."
    • From the same book, Martin's father, Gottfried, is an anti-Semitic racist Nazi, itself a horrid way to make a first impression. Gottfried rapes his own daughter and kills at least 7 women in parodies of Old Testament (specifically, Leviticus) punishments. He is also the one responsible for raising Martin into an individual like himself.
    • The other two books, The Girl Who Played with Fire and The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest, feature Zalachenko, a Russian agent who took refuge in Sweden. Because of his high importance to the government, Zalachenko was allowed to do anything he wanted. His favorite activity was abusing his wife. He would often torture or beat her in front of their daughter. The last time, he beat her so bad he left her with severe brain damage, which resulted in his daughter, who we find out is Lisbeth, burning Zala alive in retribution. Surviving with hideous wounds, Zala became the leader of a powerful human trafficking ring where girls were forced into prostitution. Having many, many women sold into sex slavery or killed when their value diminished, Zala also had multiple murders committed by his nightmarishly powerful son, and when he found out his daughter's location, he spared no expense to murder anyone in his path to torture her to death himself.

edited 8th Jul '14 4:55:06 PM by randomtroper89

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27525: Jul 8th 2014 at 11:31:13 AM

[up][tup] Added it to my list along with the Krueger revision [up][up][up]


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