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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#274376: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:03:49 PM

Yeah those are fair points on Annis and I would be fine with her keeping but I should ay that I did admit they weren't in the story but the author in the opening said they did still exist, though I guess it doesn't matter either way.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#274377: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:07:44 PM

Generally, author statements mean nothing if it doesn't appear in the work itself (hello Gabriel Kruger!)

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#274378: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:07:57 PM

I am going to be honest, Ravok brings up a good point about Gibbs. Plus I just rewatched the movie, I was actually planning to regardless of the discussion, and was planning to bring it up here but Ravok beat me to it. Every death is a result of his choice. A choice he made willingly and new what would happen. This is not something I feel strongly about, but I think, after my rewatch I might lean keep, if only barely.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:10:57 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#274379: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:12:37 PM

What STAR says is correct, Jack Slash wouldn't count if a quick little tidbit written by the author in an out-of-universe note was taken to real effect—the author revealed in a simple forum post that Slash had a rough Freudian Excuse, that was never once addressed in the story proper. Speaking of which, Slash could probably stand to be trimmed and de-potholed, that's another of my old ones lol, onto the trim list he goes.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#274380: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:15:00 PM

Yeah I remember Malekith has Word of God that he had loved ones, but we don't see them in the movie so we don't count it against him.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:16:10 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#274381: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:15:55 PM

You want to keep him, go right ahead. But to be honest, I feel like you're way too invested in it as a single issue thing.

Referring to future in this.

Though I will say I really don't care that it was an accident that Kolchak killed people. He did, and probably didn't feel remorseful. Though that has nothing to do with this, it's just my opinion on what was said.

Edited by DaceyMormont on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:17:59 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#274382: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:17:03 PM

Who was that directed at? I only said one thing on the matter

Edit: Never mind you clarified.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:18:54 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#274383: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:17:08 PM

I am not sure it is entirely comparable this is a fanfic that is taking an established universe and omitting a detail but the author admits is still their but not shown.

DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#274384: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:18:15 PM

[up][up] Future, not you.

If it means that much to him then I say keep him just because I'm tired of relitigating this discussion.

Edited by DaceyMormont on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:19:11 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#274385: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:20:26 PM

[up] Yeah sorry misunderstood.

[up][up] I don't really see the difference there expect form of medium.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:21:32 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#274387: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:24:12 PM

This is a long and confusing convo

At this point. Ill abstain.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#274388: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:25:20 PM

Maybe not sure on the Word of God stuff myself but ultimately it doesn't really matter as your points as to why the emotions aren't moral agency compromising are good and would still apply, so I guess I will vote Keep myself.

I will also abstain on Gibbs to much for me to vote Cut or Keep solidly.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:29:42 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#274389: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:26:42 PM

Honestly I'll go for keeping Gibbs. He has a reasonable independent body count and enables every other murder throughout the entire film.

DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#274390: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:27:46 PM

Honestly I'm not particularly sold on a cut either at this point. He does make it possible for everything to happen and is a bit more than random helper. At the same time his bodycount and goals pale in comparison to Ivan's so the two points wash out in my estimation.

Either way, I have no real gripes to either cutting or keeping.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#274391: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:28:31 PM

I'm sticking to my "cut" vote, TBH. I still think we're accrediting a little too much of the terrorist's body count to him and him alone.

DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#274392: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:30:42 PM

Yeah, that's my thing. Ivan out-heinouses him on every count but he himself doesn't keep due to a genuine belief in his goals plus friendship with his men.

I can't really support him but don't really know how to feel about him in any case.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#274393: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:30:58 PM

Leaning towards cutting Gibbs.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#274394: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:31:55 PM

Here's my thing: he works with Korshunov and directly orchestrates and enables the hijacking and ensuing murders to happen. He's not just a bystander who turns coat at last second—he quite literally is the sole reason the hijacking and subsequent deaths are able to come about. He's just as culpable as Korshunov for the deaths that ensue, and even if he wasn't directly executing people, him being the literal catalyst for a terrorist hijacking that gets dozens killed as part of a plan he knew would result in bloodshed, then gets plenty of kills of his own...He's also the final boss of the film, it being "stupid" or just a writing problem that needed a last villain means nothing, he's still given the suitable weight and presence of "oh shit he was the mole who allowed Korshunov onboard."

We've approved plenty other "treacherous snake who allies with Big Bad and knowingly gets people killed", so I'm fine with Gibbs myself. Just my thoughts.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:32:54 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#274395: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:32:55 PM

I'd like to apologize to future and k4 for jumping the gun on calling for discussion to stop. With other discussions happening in the middle, this case was a bit unique, and clearly it did need to happen just a bit longer. For what it's worth, I lean very slightly towards keeping, but it's slight and he's the absolute bare minimum for a minion.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#274396: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:37:41 PM

Thanks to you too Bull. Appreciate it.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#274397: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:38:44 PM

Right now, I'm going to say keep Gibbs, though it's not a particularly strong stance.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#274398: Aug 6th 2021 at 6:49:01 PM

I have another rewrite for a character who's writeup is far to long.

Original

  • 10000 Years Later (2015): Wugreb was once a simple tribe leader who sought to understand the secrets of the ancient gods and their magic, technology. However, discovering that all gods were mere humans, Wugreb decided to make himself the most glorious being to have ever lived. Declaring himself the Devil of the new world, Wu transformed his entire tribe into his own army of demonic monsters, and sent them out into the land to pillage, destroy, and slaughter all they came across, turning the current world into a Hell of his own making. After being locked away for a millennium for his crimes, Wu rises once more and continues his nightmarish conquest, massacring entire tribes and, in one case, cursing their souls to never leave their now-dead bodies. Lusting to return to the ancient "Techcity" so as to use it in his domination, Wu assaults and strangles the friends and dog of a young girl, Joma, to force her to give him the means to bring Techcity to him, and, after succeeding in this, forces her to watch as he crucifies and kills one of her friends in front of her. Wu later declares his goal to erase all former gods from the history books and become the one, true power in the world, and brutally murders the few heroes who stand up to him, before attempting the same to Joma. Wu believed any shred of humanity to be a weakness and saw himself as the ultimate being who deserved to be god, and as such, lived up to his self-given name of "Devil Wu", terrorizing and killing all who stood in his way simply to feed his superiority complex.

Mine

  • 10000 Years Later (2015): Wugreb was once a simple tribe leader who sought to understand the secrets of the ancient gods. Discovering that all gods were mere humans, Wugreb decided to make himself the most glorious being to have ever lived and transformed his entire tribe into his own army of demonic monsters, and sent them out into the land to pillage, destroy, and slaughter all they came across, turning the current world into a Hell of his own making. After being locked away for a millennium for his crimes, Wu rises once more and continues his nightmarish conquest, massacring entire tribes and, in one case, cursing their souls to never leave their now-dead bodies. Lusting to return to the ancient "Techcity" so as to use it in his domination, Wu assaults and strangles the friends and dog of a young girl named Joma, including crucifying one and making her watch to force her to give him the means to bring Techcity to him. After succeeding in this, Wu declares his goal to erase all former gods from the history books and become the most powerful being in existence, and brutally murders the few heroes who stand up to him, before attempting the same to Joma.

Not quite under 200 but he does alot.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#274399: Aug 6th 2021 at 7:58:21 PM

[tup] Charlie, Berg, Eightball, Queen and Lamia

Switchimg back to keep Gibbs.

I ran this by Ravok, who said he liked it:

"Subconscious... In a way Stand abilities are the users' subconscious abilities. If there's any guilt in their heart, they might subconsciously hit the brakes... But whoever this is enjoys cruelty. Actually, he lives for it. That's how his ability became this. This guy doesn't have any brakes at all! He has no limits on how evil he can be!"
Giorno Giovanna on Cioccolata, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Vento Aureo

Thoughts?

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Aug 6th 2021 at 7:59:05 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#274400: Aug 6th 2021 at 8:09:34 PM

As I said in PMs, love it!

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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