During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The thing is though, Cooper benefits from severely damaging people's lives and getting more people killed, including creating Sawyer thanks to driving his father to murder-suicide and crippling Locke. What doesn't help his chances is that Emeka is kinda nothing compared to another warlord - the guy that recruits Eko in the first place. That guy forcibly recruits children into his ranks and tries to make Yemi kill an unarmed man until Eko does it instead, then they forcibly recruit Eko and turn him into a vicious warlord himself (leading to the creation of Eko's drug smuggling operation). Plus, Eko killing the guys in the church ends up being worse for the village than Emeka is, since they close down the now desecrated church. Overall, there's nothing special about him - even though he is doing everything he can for the time, so are a whole lot of people on his tier
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:00:34 AM
k4 posted the kill count numbers, not SkyCat. Again, the narrative strongly supports the notion that the hijacking is ABSOLUTELY not possible without Gibbs's involvement and it's to the point that his reveal of being a traitor in the end—even though the audience is already very aware—is treated like a HUGE plot element too. The whole thing is given extensive weight and gravity at both the beginning and the end of the movie.
Anybody have an answer to my 2017 Ghost in the Shell question?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 6th 2021 at 5:01:35 AM
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I counted 8 for Ivan personally: three agents, a crewman when he and Kolchak run to take the cockpit, the two pilots, National Security Advisor Doherty and Deputy Press Secretary Melanie Mitchell.
So I have a bit of an issue with one of the keepers listed on the Fan Works page.
- Inside Out fanfic Kids World
: After a Depopulation Bomb that's fatal to those older than twelve devastates society, Annis inserts herself as a tyrant and abuses her "friends" Caroline and Riley, forcing the former to set a building full of kids on fire and beats her for stopping Annis from feeding an infant to a pack of dogs. With Caroline seemingly killed, Annis mocks the heartbroken Riley and later throws her off a bridge for trying to stop her despotic rule. Enraged when Caroline and Riley survive, Annis burns multiple buildings to the ground, uncaring if they're populated, ultimately intending a devastating attack on Minnesota to spite Riley, and when her control of her followers is broken, Annis spitefully vows to kill Riley and reassume power.
My problem doesn't have to do with the dark tone compared to the film (as I know that was adressed) or the fact the keeper was proposed by their own author (as I know that was grandfathered in). The real issue I have has to do with the fact that in the Inside Out universe it is shown the every single character has 5 emotions that guide their actions which we would have to assume is the same for Annis, which could mean that every single character lacks moral agency (not super sure though). I will admit that the emotions don't appear in it but the author saying the opening that they are still a part of the story and influencing some of the characters.
If someone has a rebutal I would be fine with hearing it but I feel like this should at least be adressed as this is really buggiing me and I can't find anywhere this was brought up.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:02:00 AM
Yeah, it's a point worth bringing up, but it's shown in the movie that characters are capable of acting independent of their emotions in unexpected ways - like when Joy tries to cheer Riley up with memories of San Francisco, but all that does is make her feel even worse. Plus, the entire point of the ending is that Joy can't make her happy any more, so Sadness has to step in to get her back home.
I say keep her. The emotions do not compromise agency. The film shows that people can act independently of them. They also aren't in the story from my memory.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 6th 2021 at 7:18:47 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI counted 10 regardless. Actually I used to be active on a site where we counted kills in movies and I did Air Force One (or rather, redid it). Shame what happened to the place.
Yeah, he helped make it possible. But at the end of the day, his part in the actual hijacking was limited. He did nothing further to help Ivan and again, Ivan and company have a far higher bodycount and bigger goals. Ivan wants to free a dictator so that a new cold war can be started. Gibbs just wants a paycheck.
@k4 Ivan has five men. Two of them not kill anybody?
To lay it out fully now one last time—and he's fully aware than Radek is a threat who'll be unleashed if Korshunov gets his way too. It's not made a mystery:
Body count too low: Gibbs has more bodies to his name than most of Ivan's men separately or together. Excluding Sergei who has the most with 10, Gibbs's murder number is bigger compared to the others who have 2-1-1 and that full total is 4 to his 5–and one of the men apparently didn't kill anyone. We're approved action movie villains with body counts as low as 3.
Just a subordinate: Gibbs is working independently to them and a hired hand rather than an actual member of the gang. He acts completely on his own with the five total murders he commits and has his own agenda—even if it's not the TLDR one. While he's doing exactly what Korshunov wants with assisting the hijacking, he willingly eliminates whoever's in the way and kills later on when it means his own survival as well.
Role in hijacking not given enough weight: It's given plenty as the movie makes a definitive reference to there being no way to takeover the plane without weapons and the weapons onboard could only ever be provided by someone with access to them. Gibbs as I said is the catalyst, the needed spark that guarantees the fire starts. The hijacking is by all means conceivably not possible without his part in it and the ending of the movie making him the Final Boss—and putting further emphasis on him being the root cause—solidifies his importance in his part just as much to begin with as Korshunov otherwise leading the charge.
With all that laid out, I gave it my best shot. However you guys feel is up to you.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 6th 2021 at 5:35:20 AM
Kolchak (the pilot) does not kill anybody. And it's Sergei Lenski who kills 10 (including Nevsky by accident). The rest kill 1 or 2 each.
Edited by k410ren on Jun 30th 2022 at 9:06:49 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
One. And again, just a mook. Gibbs isn't just a mook.
Also with Caldwell exclaiming "It was you!?" makes it a big deal too that Korshunov and his men were able to hijack the plane and kill 22 total as well because Gibbs literally left the door wide opened for them to do it.
Also, the six members of the press team killed so Korshunov and his men could infiltrate the plane is OV.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 6th 2021 at 5:41:02 AM
Lamia, Berg, Eighball, Fair Queen.
Keep Walder, Craster, and Annis.
Edited by ASghhrv6ub on Aug 6th 2021 at 7:44:25 AM
I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine![]()
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Albeit by accident. Sergei meant to blow the door open, not blow everyone at the ramp out of the plane and blow the tanker up.
Edited by k410ren on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:48:28 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsLook, I appreciate everything you're saying, but is there a reason why this needs to continue when the discussion began 11 pages ago? I understand the past day has been pretty active, but there comes a point when a discussion has run its course.
I'm not saying it's bad faith, like I said I do get the need to defend one of your characters, but there comes a point when a discussion needs to die down. For what it's worth, I'm honestly thinking he might barely squeak in, but it's just been a long talk.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 6th 2021 at 8:59:29 AM
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Yeah, Sergei blowing the door opened to stop the parachute escape sequence is where most of his kills come from too. Thank you. What's Sergei's count without that part by the way?
I just needed to fully say why I don't think he should be cut one last time and I believe I did so in both good faith and at a relevant time too. I wanted to at least give him one more fighting chance. I figured he earned that much.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 6th 2021 at 5:52:01 AM
0 or 1, depending on whether or not he's the terrorist who shot the agent running towards Alice during the initial hijacking.
Edited by k410ren on Jun 30th 2022 at 9:07:05 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills'Yes' to Berg and Eightball
I'mma be honest, been a bit since I've seen Air Force One but I'm leaning more on Keeping Gibbs for whatever that's worth. Every death in the movie is a direct result of him orchestrating and working with Korshunov on the hijacking, and while yes, he's not personally executing people left and right...he still is the sole reason Korshunov's invasion takes place, he's The Mole who supplied weapons, intel and access to get them inside, and every death that follows is directly or indirectly on his head. He's also the final villain of the film, so "he's underwhelming/not given enough weight" feels pretty baseless to me.
I don't feel too strongly on this one, like I said, been awhile. But Gibbs, though not as sadistic about it, has just as much "character allies with the Big Bad to screw over tons of lives knowingly while personally killing a few people of his own" as Cypher from The Matrix. "Cypher was sadistic about it" doesn't change that they're both The Mole who kill their own allies and pave the way for the Big Bad to kill a shit ton of people. I'm for Keeping him, late as this may be coming.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:01:58 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!@Star You can blame me since I restarted discussion over statements about body count that I felt were incorrect.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills@STAR I probably should've done it yesterday while cut votes were coming in I admit and put up more of a fight then. I'm doing it now though because I won't get another chance. It's still fresh enough to call for the cut not to happen whether or not it does any good so that way it helps give a better balance to the discussion.
No it's okay k4. You did nothing wrong. Cut votes had still been coming in.
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Thanks Rav.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 6th 2021 at 6:02:11 AM

@SkyCat I'd have someone else do it just to be safe.
I wanted to make one last plea for Gibbs to remain a keep. If not, I'll let it go.