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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27376: Jul 3rd 2014 at 5:27:24 PM

[up] Thanks. The movie just did not make the case, to me at least, that she's developed an adult worldview by the point she died. Or, in legal-ese, had she faced a judge instead of a Bolt of Divine Retribution, I don't think she'd be able to be tried as an adult.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#27377: Jul 3rd 2014 at 5:36:57 PM

I watched the Lilly D. episodes of The Haunting Hour. Here's an update for her entry:

  • The Haunting Hour: Lilly D is a doll with a soul, but a soul of evil. She gradually turns Lilly into a doll to take her place among the family, and before she set that plan into motion, she turns Lilly's mother against her to the point where she says to the doll "I wish you where my daughter" right in front of the real Lilly. She later returns seemingly redeemed due to the love of a new girl named Natalie, but later she turns out to be jealousy-prone and attempts to drown a baby bird being nursed to health, pushes Natalie's handicapped grandfather down the stairs, and attacks Natalie with a knife.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#27378: Jul 3rd 2014 at 5:58:38 PM

@27373: Huh, well if it's only a short film, then I suppose the gang leader can count. Sounds like he reaches the baseline heinous standard with only a little bit of time to work with.

@27374: Write-ups look good.

@27379: I think I'll vote down on the Rat King for now. Maybe if he returns and does more in the future, I'll consider him, but for the time being he doesn't sound heinous enough.

@27383: I'll agree with cutting Rhoda.

@27389: While the expanded write-up is better, I'm kind of leaning no on the character. She doesn't sound worse than the typical Haunting Hour monster.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#27380: Jul 3rd 2014 at 6:07:58 PM

[up][up] I disagree, I think Mind Rape and attempting to experiment on a bunch random people, including teenagers and a small child is pretty heinous, that seems beyond standard villainy to me. Also with the experimentation he knew that is serum was very unstable (one of his initial test subjects became a incapacitated freak of nature that is constant pain) and he still planned on experimenting on a teenager next, seems pretty low.

The only reason I would hold off on deciding on him is because he may try something even lower in his next appearance, but he seems like a Once a Season villain, he may not appear for a while.

Animated Mongul counted as a CM after he mind raped Superman, I think Rat King's many attempts to break Splinter's will and make him his save through Mind Rape, as well as has his attempts at human experimentation (he has ruined at least two people's lives, one rather drastically, considering one of his test subjects is a mutated invalid) I think he meets the heinous standard.

edited 3rd Jul '14 7:11:15 PM by TheOverlord

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27381: Jul 3rd 2014 at 6:12:55 PM

Also I think I'm going to start up with the James Bond novels again, with From Russia With Love, so I'll report on anyone who seems like a possibility. I've been told (by Hodor) that Donald Grant is way worse in the book than the film, and since he's just a hired gun he wouldn't need to stack with Drax in the heinousness department.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#27382: Jul 3rd 2014 at 7:18:11 PM

I'll agree that as of now, Rat King is the vilest villain on that show. All the same, it's better to hold off on him until another appearance or two. For all we know he'll show some redeeming features or Shredder, the Krang, Baxter Stockman, Slash, or whomever could end up omitting actions that eclipse his.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#27383: Jul 3rd 2014 at 7:46:03 PM

I'd like to propose a candidate from Xenoblade. I've read the spoilers and it looks to me like he qualifies. I am of course talking about the Ax-Crazy Metal Face. He's one of Egil's top lackeys and the very first thing he does is kill off Fiora. When he meets up with the protagonists again, he claims that her screams were like music to his ears. And it only gets worse from there. He's constantly taunting the heroes including Dunban (who was Fiora's brother). It's also implied he's slaughtered plenty of other Homs besides Fiora. He's a Smug Snake with no redeeming qualities even when he was the Dirty Coward Mumkhar. While the other faced Mechon have at least some humanizing qualities, Metal Face has none and is driven by spite and envy.

There's also Xord who's eaten plenty of Homs and laughs about it. I'm not sure about Xord though, but I'm certain Metal Face qualifies.

edited 3rd Jul '14 7:50:00 PM by Klavice

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#27384: Jul 3rd 2014 at 7:58:52 PM

[up][up] Well again, I think we have to take into account that Rat King has far less resources then either the Kraang or the Foot Clan, so while both of those organizations are capable of more grand scale crimes then the Rat King, the Rat King has shown a willingness to try and punch above his weight class. Despite his limited resources and less amount of screen time, he is a more vile then either the Shredder or the Kraang, his schemes seem involve more pointless sadism and harming random people in cruel ways, including children.

For example Shredder wants to hurt to Splinter in a misguided belief that he is getting revenge on Splinter because he believes Splinter ruined his life. Rat King wants to hurt Splinter, because he wants to break Splinter's will and make him his slave. Rat King's reasoning is far less sympathetic then Shredder's. Rat King wanted to force Splinter to kill his sons out of pure sadism, he hated the Turtles for foiling his schemes and thought it was ironic to force their father figure to kill them, slowly. Rat King seems like the most cruel and sadistic villain in the show.

Also I think Rat King's attempts to experiment on random civilians is worse then any of the experimentation the Kraang has done so far. Sure the Kraang was kidnapping mutants to experiment on them, but the mutants could defend themselves better then the random civilians Rat King was kidnapping and Rat King's experiments seemed far more dangerous.

I don't mind waiting a little bit, but I don't think we should kick the can down the road indefinitely, the only reason I want to see if Rat King does something nasty in his next appearance. But we did make a call on Walder Fray before Game of Thrones ended.

edited 3rd Jul '14 7:59:11 PM by TheOverlord

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27385: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:04:01 PM

[up][up]This character has one murder to his name and that's it, going by your description. The implication that he's killed others isn't enough by itself, and taunting people does not a CM make. If he kills somebody else, then try again.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#27386: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:14:05 PM

[up] Opps, sorry, I thought you referring to me because you arrows, sorry about the confusion. Did not mean to get in the way of your debate with Klavice.

edited 3rd Jul '14 8:45:45 PM by TheOverlord

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27387: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:20:36 PM

Metal face...ah, yes. he's a genocidal murderer who's just as despicable as Zanza. I'd say keep.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27388: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:22:45 PM

Are we ready to send the request to cut Rhoda, or should we wait for more votes?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27389: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:24:20 PM

[up][up][up]If that's the case it was a very, very poor description. All Klavice wrote was that Metal Face had killed one person and was implied to have killed more offscreen. Carnage, in contrast, tried to kill several hundred onscreen. It didn't work, but he tried.

Now if he actually has an onscreen attempted bodycount I'm happy to talk about him. But that should have been in the proposal.

edited 3rd Jul '14 8:25:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#27390: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:25:49 PM

If only one murder does not make a Complete Monster, we'd have to disqualify quite a few people. One that immediately comes to mind is Matt Engarde from Ace Attorney. He's only killed one person (not directly either) and his only other crimes were taunting the heroes. Yet he was almost unanimously voted in favour of.

Metal Face did kill someone else actually. The Emperor of the High Entia. And it's not at all implied. You are given a vision of the future early on in the game. I haven't seen all of the game yet but I know he's killed at least two people. Does amount of murders really matter when determining a complete monster? I'd think not, but I could be wrong.

Keep in mind I'm going by what I've seen in the game so far. I haven't played very far (to be honest I'm watching a playthrough of it). So I don't know much to really warrant a discussion. Though it seems Lightysnake knows enough, so I think we can still continue the discussion.

Here's what I DO know about him though.

Metal Face has killed many inhabitants of Colony 6, the Emperor of High Entia (who was sort of like the Pope), some Colony 9 members, and Fiora, so he's got many murders to his name. In addition, he's also in charge of mechanizing many slain Homs into slave mooks. So he's got plenty of onscreen action to prove he's vile enough to count. Oh and his "taunting" isn't so much taunting as it is "The Reason You Suck Speech" which emotionally traumatizes Shulk, Dunban and Reyn.

edited 3rd Jul '14 9:45:14 PM by Klavice

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27391: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:34:48 PM

[up]Yes the amount of murder matters immensely. Killing people is what villains do. One murder? That qualifies you as evil, but nothing more. It takes a string of murder/attempted murder in order to qualify. And if we really have voted up a bunch of examples who only have one murder/attempted murder and no other crimes (which I somehow doubt), that would be cause to cut them, not to put up more bad examples.

And you can't be upset at me for not knowing that he has a second onscreen murder when you didn't include that in your original proposal.

edited 3rd Jul '14 8:35:59 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#27392: Jul 3rd 2014 at 8:38:17 PM

I apologize. I only just found out most of this. It isn't exactly revealed to you in the beginning of the game after all. I tend to get a tad personal when it gets to a heated discussion like this.

He's a sadistic mass murderer, I think that's reason enough to include him.

If you want to learn more about him, look no further than this [[Characters/Xenoblade page]] here.

Edit: How do you create a link to a wiki page on the forum?

edited 3rd Jul '14 8:55:30 PM by Klavice

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#27393: Jul 3rd 2014 at 9:26:20 PM

Also support cutting Rhoda. I know the work wants to make the case that she's fully responsible for her actions, but I call B.S.

Now I do wonder how to distinguish her from the kid from The Good Son- I suppose it does seem like he's a full fledged calculating sociopath, whereas she seems less "fully formed".

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27394: Jul 3rd 2014 at 9:30:06 PM

[up] I'm not even sure about that. It's mentioned that her biological grandmother (her mother was adopted) was also a Serial Killer, so back then that probably meant she was "genetically evil." Today we'd likely say she'd inherited a recessive psychological disorder.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27395: Jul 3rd 2014 at 9:56:56 PM

I think HT put it best. There's a childlike quality to Rhoda. An 'innocently evil' quality. Henry of The Good Son is simply cruel and malicious

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#27396: Jul 3rd 2014 at 10:19:10 PM

@ Klavis, Matt may have only ordered out one single solitary murder, but he had other crimes under his belt: He drove a woman to suicide, tried to pin the murder on an innocent woman, had Maya kidnapped so he could blackmail Pheonex into getting him an aquitle despite knowing he was guilty by threatning to kill Maya, and finally, he planned on betraying and blackmailing the hitman he hired despite the fact that the hitman had a history of building trusting relationships with his clients.

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27397: Jul 4th 2014 at 12:13:06 AM

Nice Haunting Hour rewrite [tup]
Also, one murder CAN count, I believe, if it's spectacularly cruel and torturous.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27398: Jul 4th 2014 at 5:49:40 AM

From this post: I've cut Optimus Prime and Candy. Violet's husband, Toruk and John Nike I'll go keep for now and rewrite. With Ivy League Killer's work page being so bare bones, I'll go cut for now and request they explain it here.

Re: Dirty Laundry: I went ahead and watched it, and am still not convinced that the film should be taken in complete isolation. There's a difference between a homage and just using the character without mentioning his name. There's absolutely zero doubt that it's Frank Castle when he gives his Punisher shirt to the kid at the end, so it would seem to be at least in-canon with the Thomas Jane version. That said, that verse is much less dark than the comic version, so I can see the gang leader stand out. I can do a rewrite for him.

Re: Harry Warden: I'll compile the votes soon. I don't think Generic Doomsday Villain is an issue here, though (which has been given its own clean-up thread, it seems). From what bobg described he has no less of a personality than Michael Myers, he's just a Silent Antagonist who's more heinous than the main villain.

Here's a new write-up for DuPont.

edited 5th Jul '14 1:24:42 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27399: Jul 4th 2014 at 5:58:24 AM

Maybe wrap a Secret Police around Tetragrammaton Order, and possibly make some mention of Brandt and the parallels to 1984. Otherwise [tup]

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#27400: Jul 4th 2014 at 9:55:56 AM

[up]Good write-up for DuPont.

Re Fallout: If there are no objections then in three days I'll request Burke and Myron's removal from Monster.Fallout.

edited 4th Jul '14 10:12:22 AM by OccasionalExister


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