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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#273851: Aug 4th 2021 at 9:13:30 AM

Ok, abstain on the clone.

[down] With that, I must decline the clone.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 4th 2021 at 1:12:52 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#273852: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:03:50 AM

Leaning no on [tdown]issacs.

Spence who has like way less resources then him kills 500 people which blows this away.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#273854: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:12:09 AM

Yeah I'm officially voting no. The original clone, for me, is the least heinous person who I think counts, mostly because of the experiments on the Alice clones being sadistic Death Courses .

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#273856: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:15:05 AM

Nay on one of Isaacs clones.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#273857: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:36:13 AM

[tup] for the Chancellor.

[tdown] for Isaacs.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#273858: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:40:09 AM

[tup] to the CSI reformat.

[tdown] to the Dr. Isaacs clone.

Here's another candidate.

What's the Work?

Road to Hell (2016) (also called Stop Over in Hell) is a Western thriller movie set in 1965, directly after the Civil War. During this time, countless Americans begin moving westward to settle new land, but since transcontinental railroads haven't been extensively implemented yet, many travel by stagecoach. Much of the film follows a Western outpost called Black Hell Company, currently occupied by a settler named Chris and managed by another man named Ernest. Three other travelers soon join them, two of them named Liz and Anne, but their seemingly peaceful journey attracts the attention of particularly vicious company...

Who is Colonel, Cuba and Red? What Have They Done?

Colonel, Cuba, and Red are a trio of deserters from the 7th Regiment during the Civil War, who have now taken up a life of criminality instead. During one bank heist, Colonel smashes the butt of his revolver against one hostage's face for simply losing his cool and repeatedly muttering "They're gonna catch you." As the man lay bleeding and choking on his own broken teeth, every other hostage, including a baby, begin screaming and sobbing uncontrollably at the scene. Irritated even more, Colonel slaughters every single hostage. This, along with his time in the Civil War and the West, inspires Colonel to adopt a social darwinist ideology, in which he believes that the strong (him and his posse) have a right to exploit and kill the weak (virtually everyone he preys upon). Cuba and Red gleefully adopt this same mindset and the three set upon a mindless campaign of pillaging, slaughtering, torturing, and raping any settlers they come upon.

In one particular instance, the trio intercept a stagecoach, in which Colonel begins beating one passenger to death with his bare hands, while Cuba and Red rape the women to death. Two stragglers, one child and one man, try to escape, but Colonel shoots the child for fun and the three bandits corner the man, cutting all of his fingers and his tongue, before leaving him to slowly bleed out in the open wilderness. Traveling with a mute mestiza girl, the trio travel and settle in Black Hell Company, intending to ambush a stagecoach full of gold that will stop by the outpost.

Bored, Colonel sics his men to kill or capture everyone else at the outpost, in which Red shoots one man who tries to flee and threatens to kill a captured Anne when Liz manages to hide from them. Simultaneously, Colonel and Cuba begin torturing Ernest for when the stagecoach will arrive, literally crucifying him on a large wheel. Ernest replies that there is no set time for when it comes, but this dissatisfies both of his interrogators. In response, Colonel begins whipping Ernest and then stabbing him with his favorite knife, while Cuba grabs his own knife to carve some of his flesh off, killing the man.

They keep Chris, Liz, and Anne alive, so that they can force Chris to send a signal for the upcoming stagecoach that it's safe to come and to have some "entertainment" while they wait, specifically beating and threatening them regularly. After some time, another stagecoach arrives with a set of passengers looking for a place to sleep, in which Colonel hosts dinner for them. He sends Red to tie and lock Liz and Anne in a separate room, in which Red tries raping Anne. Fortunately, Liz manages to free herself from her bonds, incapacitates Red, and screams for help. Unfortunately, Colonel reacts quickly, working with Cuba to kill all of the guests. One of them tries firing back, but he only manages to hit the mestiza girl they were traveling with. When Colonel sees one guest try to raise his hands in surrender, he shoots him through the crotch, merely to give him a more painful death. During this scuffle, Chris tries to help the guests, but he's quickly apprehended and Colonel breaks his hand as punishment.

Come next morning, the stagecoach full of gold arrives to outpost, but Chris tries warning them of the upcoming ambush, earning himself a bullet, courtesy of Colonel. Despite the convoy's best efforts to defend themselves, the three bandits quickly overwhelm them, in which Cuba captures one to burn alive with gasoline and Red hangs one of the gunmen. With their mission seemingly accomplished, Red tries to rape Anne one more time, but he's stabbed and shot by both her and Anne. Cuba is too entranced with collecting the gold to even hear the scuffle and only realizes the problem when he's riddled with bullets by Liz.

Left alone, Colonel takes Anne hostage and threatens to kill her with a knife when Liz points her gun at him. Silently, the two reach an agreement for Liz to drop her gun in exchange for releasing Anne. Colonel seemingly obliges, but just as Anne reaches Liz's arms, he shoots her through the back and tries killing Liz via strangling. Finally rebelling against his cruelty, the mestiza girl attacks Colonel and begins pulling at his flesh, but he manages to break himself free and shoot her. Liz takes advantage of the opportunity to stab Colonel, but he manages to recover from this injury and kill Liz. With the gold all to himself, Colonel leaves, thinking he's victorious.

However, Reality Ensues and Colonel is stuck in the middle of nowhere with no medical supplies and miles from any other vestige of human civilization, all the while still bleeding from his injuries. He ultimately succumbs to the blood loss from his wounds, spending his last moments pathetically attempting to reach out to the dropped gold,.

Do They Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?

For an excuse, Colonel cites that his Civil War experience may have shaped him into being more ruthless, but it's incredibly vague and unexplained, not to mention that he mentions this fact with absolutely no shame, fully aware that he's a criminal and being completely content with it anyway, even enjoying it at times. Given all of this, I'm not inclined to think his Freudian Excuse has any true weight to make it mitigating. The closest it does is when Colonel reminisces about his wartime experience, in which he imagines hearing the sounds and screams in a battlefield. However, the sequence ends with Colonel smugly inhaling through a smoking pipe and the corners of his mouth almost raising into a smirk, ultimately unaffected by the whole sequence and indicating that his experience isn't sympathetic enough to disqualify him. Cuba implies to have a similar background, but is even vaguer than Colonel and doesn't even have the aforementioned auditory experience, so I don't think it's mitigating either. Meanwhile, Red doesn't even bother with an excuse at all.

There's also another moment where Colonel explains his social darwinist philosophy to his hostages, in which he believes that Chris isn't one of the "strong" like he is and, to prove his point, he briefly free Chris and hands him a gun, daring him to shoot and kill him. Although he put his own life on the line, it's pretty explicit that he only did it to support his own selfish ideology and not out of any care for Chris (he even remarks that he knew that Chris wouldn't pull the trigger, suggesting that he didn't even think that he was putting his life on the line). He even later kills him when he tries warning an upcoming stagecoach, cementing his lack of actual care for Chris. Speaking of his ideology, Colonel tries claiming that it justifies his crimes because he's fighting for "individual liberty" that's not different than the "crimes" committed by countries., but the narrative provides obvious details that it's just a thinly veiled excuse to commit as many crimes as he wants without fear of retribution, especially since he doesn't really do anything to live up to his "cause" other than murder people for fun and profit. Cuba and Red accept this same ideology, but don't even try to parrot the rhetoric said by Colonel, implying that they are also just opportunistic rather than well-meaning

Another potential mitigating quality is their supposed care for a mestiza girl, but when she gets injured from a gunshot, the trio are completely apathetic to her injury and leave her to bleed on the ground, nullifying that quality. Colonel even shoots her without hesitation for trying to intervene in his struggle wit Liz, subverting that quality even more. They also don't show any outward signs of affection or care for each other, so that's not mitigating either.

Do They Meet the Heinousness Standard?

They're the sole antagonists of the film and they gleefully participate in the murders, torture, and rape of any innocent civilians they can get their hands on, including children. Cuba's collection of flesh and the trio's bags of stolen gold also show that they've been doing this as practice, so they've accumulated tons of victims for a group that only consists of three people just roaming around in the West. All in all, they pass the standard.

Final Verdict?

What do you guys think?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#273859: Aug 4th 2021 at 10:58:05 AM

Yes to the Bandits.

DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#273860: Aug 4th 2021 at 11:16:25 AM

[tup] to the bandits. Okay, gotta come up with a better candidate next time. I completely overlooked words about other clones; that's fine I guess.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#273861: Aug 4th 2021 at 11:24:11 AM

[tup] Colonel, Cuba and Red

[tdown] Religious!Isaacs

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#273863: Aug 4th 2021 at 11:29:21 AM

[tup] to Colonel, Cuba and Red

[tdown] to the Isaac clone

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#273865: Aug 4th 2021 at 12:50:00 PM

[tup] Colonel, Cuba and Red. Switch to [tdown] on the clone.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273866: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:06:55 PM

Now, here are the current entries on Monster.Yu Gi Oh:

  • The Spirit of the Millennium Ring, known as Dark Bakura, or Yami Bakura, was the longest running antagonist of the series, and one of its worst, though his actions between the manga and anime were different.
    • In the manga, Dark Bakura was with Ryo Bakura for a long time before he moved to Domino City. Whenever any of Bakura's friends tried to play games with him, Dark Bakura would trap them inside of RPG figures, putting them into comas. When Yugi Muto and his friends came over to play the Monster World RPG game that Bakura himself created, Dark Bakura trapped them inside over the course of the game and tried to kill them. After this, he fakes a Heel–Face Turn and gets the gang to believe that he's trying to help them—although they don't trust him-and then kills Pegasus and steals his Millennium Eye behind their backs. During Battle City, he stabs himself in the arm and then reverts back to normal Bakura so that Marik can gain the groups trust and then murders Ghost Kozuka after a Duel to take his Puzzle Card. In the final arc, Dark Bakura is revealed to have manipulate his host into constructing an RPG of Atem's final battle, in which the RPG figures are implied to be sapient, to summon Zorc Necrophades, who will then proceed to destroy the world, again if he wins the game against Dark Yugi. He Duels Katsuya Jonouchi and Yugi at two separate occasions and nearly kills them both.
    • In the anime, the Spirit of the Ring was possessing Yugi's friend Bakura for almost the entire duration of the series. During the Duelist Kingdom arc he traps Yugi and his friends within the card game, resulting in their being sent the graveyard if defeated. He subsequently tries to bodyjack Mokuba Kaiba, and rips Pegasus's Millennium Eye out of his eye socket, leaving him in a coma. During Battle City, he infiltrates the tournament and sends Bonz, Zygor, and Sid to the Shadowrealm, then tries to do the same to Yugi and Yami. Failing, he returns in Season 5 as The Big Bad. Outing himself as an agent of Zorc Necrophades, The Spirit of the Ring repossesses Bakura, and sets in motion a plot to bring about The End of the World as We Know It. He kidnaps Mokuba to force Kaiba into a Shadow Game, then traps the cast in the Memory World, where he can control their lives, possessing Tristan and his own past self, Thief King Bakura, in the process. Eventually pulling a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness on his own past self, The Spirit of the Ring unleashes Zorc in the past, while taking on Yami in his final Shadowgame in the present, with the intent of unleashing the apocalypse upon the world.
  • Dark Marik, or Yami Marik, is the twisted Split Personality who drove the real Marik off the deep end in the first place. Seizing control of Marik's body during his childhood, he killed their abusive father, and then tried to kill their adoptive brother, who had been keeping Dark Marik locked up. This failed, and Dark Marik bided his time, gaining strength, and driving Marik to further and further acts of cruelty in his quest to kill Yugi and/or Take Over the World including, but not limited to, kidnapping, Mind Rape, brainwashing, and attempted murder. Resurfacing when Marik's adopted brother was defeated in the Battle City semifinals, Dark Marik exiled his better half from their shared body, and then decided to personally screw with everyone for no reason. He engaged Mai Kujaku/Mai Valentine, Dark Bakura, and Katsutya Jonouchi/Joey Wheeler in a series of sadistic Shadowgames, with Mai experiencing imaginary but extremely painful wounds/losing memories whenever a monster was destroyed, the Bakura/Spirit of the Ring lost parts of his body, and Jonouchi/Joey felt extreme pain when a monster was destroyed/lost life energy. The games eventually saw Mai trapped in her own mind slowly dying, Bakura completely vanishing, and Jonouchi/Joey in a coma; in the dub, all three were sent to the Shadowrealm. He also made several attempts on the lives of his sister and comatose adoptive brother. This all culminated in a final battle against Dark Yugi/Yami, during which he arranged for any damage the two of them incurred to be suffered by their better halves, Marik and Yugi, nearly killing them both. An psychotic Combat Sadomasochist with omnicidal designs on the cast and/or world, Dark Marik left the cast in shellshock.

I made the changes as seen below. When I wrote Zork's entry, I basically went with how he was portrayed in the manga and the original anime, while ignoring how 4kids changed his motives quite a bit. For my rewrites, I tried to be as neutral as possible, but if necessary, I went with how it was presented original rather than how 4Kids altered it.

  • The Spirit of the Millennium Ring, known as Dark Bakura, or Yami Bakura, was the longest running antagonist of the series, and one of its worst, though his actions between the manga and anime were different.
    • In the manga, Dark Bakura first possessed Ryo Bakura at a young age, using him to murder Shadi and attack his students. As Bakura grew up, whenever any of his friends tried to play games with him, Dark Bakura would trap them inside of RPG figures, putting them into comas. When Yugi and his friends came over to play the Monster World RPG game that Bakura himself created, Dark Bakura trapped them inside over the course of the game and tried to kill them. After this, he fakes a Heel–Face Turn and gets the gang to believe that he's trying to help them—although they don't trust him-and then kills Pegasus and steals his Millennium Eye behind their backs. During Battle City, he stabs himself in the arm and then reverts back to normal Bakura so that Marik can gain the groups trust and then murders Ghost Kozuka after a Duel to take his Puzzle Card. In the final arc, Dark Bakura constructs the Shadow RPG to recreate Atem's final battle, with all the destruction that ensues, to summon Zorc Necrophades, who will then proceed to destroy the world, again if he wins the game against Dark Yugi. He duels Jonouchi and Yugi at two separate occasions and nearly kills them both, and in a last ditch effort destroys Atem's tomb to kill the group.
    • In the anime, the Spirit of the Ring was possessing Yugi's friend Bakura for almost the entire duration of the series. During the Duelist Kingdom arc he traps Yugi and his friends within the card game, resulting in their being sent the graveyard if defeated. He subsequently tries to kidnap Mokuba Kaiba, and rips Pegasus's Millennium Eye out of his eye socket, leaving him in a coma. During Battle City, he infiltrates the tournament and kills Bonz, Zygor, and Sid before trying to do the same to Yugi and Yami. Failing, he returns in Season 5 as the Big Bad. Outing himself as an agent of Zorc Necrophades, The Spirit of the Ring repossesses Bakura, and sets in motion a plot to bring about The End of the World as We Know It. He kidnaps Mokuba to force Kaiba into a Shadow Game, then traps Yami in the Memory World, possessing his own past self, Thief King Bakura, in the process. Eventually possessing Tristan Taylor as well and pulling a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness on his own past self, The Spirit of the Ring unleashes Zorc in the past, while taking on Yami in his final Shadow Game in the present, with the intent of unleashing the apocalypse upon the world.
  • Dark Marik, or Yami Marik, is the twisted Split Personality who drove the real Marik Ishtar off the deep end in the first place. Seizing control of Marik's body during his childhood, he killed their abusive father, and then tried to kill their adoptive brother, who had been keeping Dark Marik locked up. This failed, and Dark Marik bided his time, gaining strength, and driving Marik to further and further acts of cruelty in his quest to kill Yugi including, but not limited to, kidnapping, Mind Rape, brainwashing, and attempted murder. Unleashed in the Battle City Finals, Dark Marik horrifically and painfully tortures any duelist he came across, trapping Mai Kujaku/Mai Valentine in her mind, making Bakura vanish, and leaving Jonouchi/Joey Wheeler comatose, all the while making attempts on his siblings lives. In his final duel, Dark Marik puts up Yugi's soul and his normal personality as sacrifices in an attempt to either kill Yugi once and for all or rid himself of any chance of being suppressed again.

If any of you can think of any other ways to change these, let me know.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 4th 2021 at 4:10:55 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#273867: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:12:55 PM

Shit, do I owe some entries...

  • Black Rose: Matt Robinson is the serial killer the investigation is looking for, deceiving the investigation by railroading it to get away with his crimes. After being hustled by a mail order bride scheme, Robinson grows to despise Russian women and begins abducting them, especially prostitutes, to torture to death. After murdering numerous women and even one proprietor while mocking heroine Emily about the horrific manner of their deaths, he targets the woman who cheated him to torture her to death as well.
  • When Autumn Bleeds Into Winter: Gerald Martin and his accomplice Griffin are a pair of brutal serial killers who murder children in rural areas and move on to continue their activities in areas where there will not be much scrutiny. Killing the friend of 14 year old protagonist Curtis, Martin makes an uneasy truce with Curtis on the basis of mutually assured destruction, only to murder another young boy to frame Curtis for it. When Curtis moves against him, Martin and Griffin kidnap Curtis's parents to torture them to death and plan the murder the kids as well before moving to the city for easier hunting grounds.
  • Fear Street: Sheriff Nick goode is the latest of the corrupt line of Goodes who are the masterinds behind the curse plaguing Shadyside. Having the town of Sunnyvale prosper to benefit himself by sacrificing Shadysiders, Nick summons undead killers to commit murders and has random Shadysiders possessed by the devil to murder those close to them. Having been behind the massacre at Camp Nightwing in the 1970s, Nick has numerous innocents killed since and in the present of the 1990s, even trying to murder his old love interest Ziggy when she learns the truth before attempting to murder heroine Deena to keep his secret.
  • The Accursed Kings: Mahaut d'Artois is the countess of the lands of Artois, a corrupt and ruthless woman who uses poison as her favorite method of bending fate to her whim. Killing numerous people, even murdering King Louis himself to remove any obstacles, Mahaut is willing to chance civil war and mass death to keep hold of Artois and ensure her bloodline sits the throne. To remove Louis' bloodline, she proceeds to poison the baby she thinks is Louis, delighting in the crimes she commits with the more perverse and evil bringing her the most joy.
  • The Final Girl Support Group: Skye Elliott, son of Dr. Carol Elliott, is a misogynist who arranges the death of the first Final Girl Adrienne to help set up the others. Having groomed and corrupted the teenager Stephanie and disguising her as a 'Final Girl' to win the trust of heroine Lynette all so he can gain access to the camp Adrienne founded and slaughter everyone there out of pure spite for his mother by murdering the victims she had helped.
  • Mass Effect:
    • Corrupt geneticist Dr. Saleon was a Salarian mad scientist who used employees for twisted experiments, growing extra organs in them to smuggle on the black market and leaving the organs in them if they were unsuitable with terrible effects on their health. Caught, Saleon used his employees as hostages to escape before carrying on with his horrid experiments to them. When caught later, Saleon has been experimenting on numerous innocents, turning them into zombie-like monstrosities without any trace of their former selves.
    • Kai Leng is Cerberus's final agent, a smug and racist killer who murdered a Krogan in a fight before joining the organization. Leng carries out countless murders for Cerberus, including the daughter of Asari crimelord Aria, willing to kill a damaged teenager to ensure his own safety in the end. Becoming a nemesis to Commander Shepard, Leng leads an assault on the Citadel with massive casualties to cause a coup for Cerberus's puppet Udina and later attempts to stop Shepard so that the Asari world of Thessia dies in the process.
  • Galactic Heroes: Job Trunicht is remembered as the worst of all the Alliance's corruption and excess. A petty, arrogant man who will cling to power at all cost, Trunicht works with the Patriotic Knights Corps as a secret police to torture and kill those who oppose him, while also arranging events to sacrifice tens of millions of soldiers in failed attacks so he can increase his political power.Trunicht even works with the Terraist cultists and other factions to sow destruction so he can profit, even selling out the Alliance itself to ensure his own safety and power.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#273868: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:12:58 PM

Is the Zorc we discussed the same one in the anime or no difference? I thought Yami Bakura revealed that he himself actually IS Zorc. Its been a long time since I've seen most of that particular season though.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#273869: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:13:50 PM

There's a difference between versions, Future.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#273870: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:14:10 PM

Time for another EP. Sorry about the length of the Mitigating factors section but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed, so I feel it's justified.

What's the work?

Ghost: Nova is a Starcraft novel which takes place on the planet of Tarsonis and explores the origins of Nova Terra before she becomes a Ghost (a highly specialized unit which fights for the Terrans). The 15-year-old Nova sees her entire family getting killed by a rebel group. As a result of the traumatic experience she accidentally unleashes her psionic powers, devastates the skyscraper of her family and kills over 300 people (though, as already mentioned, this was an accident). After this, Nova is additionally devastated by the knowledge that she is a mass murderer (even if by accident) and runs away to the Gutter (the part of Tarsonis where the poorer part of the population resides). Now enters our candidate.

Who is Julius Antoine Dale (aka Fagin)

"Fagin" is the nickname that the most powerful crime boss in the Gutter uses. In his past he has killed so many people that there are only a handful of people left who know his real name and he prefers it that way. In the past he used to work for another crime boss named Grin before shooting him and taking his place as the leader of the criminal syndicate. After this, Fagin expands the influence of his group to the point where he becomes the leader of the Gutter in all but name.

Fagin also has 12 sex slaves which he keeps locked up and visits one of them only when he wants to have sex. Fagin doesn't care about them, only about how they look, and this is why he can't even remember their names and always refers to them by numbers. His sex slaves don't like him but pretend to do so because they are afraid of him.

Fagin also pays to the Police and to the army not to arrest his men. He allows the members of his group to terrorize the local population as long as it doesn't interfere with his interests. When Nova enters the Gutter, two teenage boys who are affiliated with Fagin's group attempt to rape her and brag how Fagin has paid about them to the Police for the next month and they have nothing to fear about. Nova uses her psionic powers to kill them and runs away.

In his very first scene Fagin spares the life of a drug dealer who had stolen from him and demotes him to the lowest level in the hierarchy because he thinks this would benefit his business in the long run and then shoots Mannfred (one of his lieutenants and the one who reported this to Fagin) because he didn't report it earlier and Fagin thinks that he is also cheating on him. After that, there is a discord in the neighborhood where Mannfred was in charge and Fagin has to suppress it by killing a few more people and breaking a few limbs but this happens offstage.

When he learns about Nova, Fagin decides that she should work for him as his personal assassin. To that end, he issues a command to all the citizens of the Gutter not to sell anything to Nova or help er in any other way. This way, he hopes that she would starve and would come to him.

However, Nova steals some food from a bar and Fagin send his personal assassin, the Pitcher, to kill Nova. The Pitcher's thoughts reveal that Nova is not the first person Fagin has commanded him to kill and that Fagin rewards him by giving him the newest designer drugs even before they have come out on the streets. However, it is revealed that the reason why Fagin does this is because Fagin wants to make sure that the drugs are safe before selling them to his clients. So, in a way he uses Pitcher as a gunnie pig to see if he displays any symptoms from consuming the new types of drugs.

After Nova kills Pitcher and goes after Fagin himself, Fagin orders his men to kidnap as many children as they can (he specifically instructs them to kidnap only preteens) and bring them to him as hostages. When Nova reaches him, she sees that there are two dozen little kids in the room. Fagin shoots a little girl and threatens to kill all the other 23 children one by one unless Nova surrenders to him (which she does).

Fagin uses a special device to block Nova from reading his thoughts. This device also has a special button which causes excruciating pain to Nova upon pressing. Fagin uses this to enslave Nova and keep her in line. He also turns her into his personal assassin and over the course of the next 6 months Nova murders 74 people (this number is stated by Nova herself) under Fagin's orders. Aside from those 74, Fagin has killed many other people himself over the course of those 6 months.

However, this device affects the mental health of the owner if it's worn for too long and Fagin starts to become more and more unstable and starts to suffer from severe loss of memory.

Fagin also frequently calls his men to his headquarters and commands Nova to read their thoughts and if there is any sign of disloyalty, he shoots them on the spot. However, as his mental health deteriorates, he starts shoots people even if they are loyal to him. For example, on one occasion Fagin calls a male and a female drug dealer who are in love with one another, and Nova says that there is no disloyalty in their thoughts and Fagin still shoots the female dealer because she "shouldn't be sleeping with her colleagues". Fagin also shoots a man from another band that was supplying him with drugs because Nova sensed in his mind that "he was scheming something". Needless to say, this ended the shipments of drugs because the other band were angry.

Fagin also shoots Harold, one of his most loyal men, because of a trivial mistake. Then, he shoots one of his male sex slaves, Number 6, because he doesn't do what he wants from him. A few moments later, Fagin's daughter, Dani arrives, but in his insanity, Fagin mistakes her for his son, Sam. After he realizes her real identity, he shoots her for "pretending to be Sam" and shows no remorse over it.

Then, a government agent of the Confederacy appears in front of his headquarters and demands to take Nova from him and train her to be Ghost. Fagin shoots at the agent and kills one of his own men in the process because Fagin doesn't care that he is standing right in front of the agent. However, the agent himself survives and Nova uses her telekinetic powers to force one of Fagin's lieutenants to shoot him at the back of the head.

Heinous standard

He is easily the most heinous character in the entire book. As for the Starcraft universe as a whole, it has a pretty high heinous standard. Amon tries to end all life in the entire universe, a lot of the villains in the franchise commit genocide on whole planets and we have villains who torture and commit experiments on living subjects.

However, despite this I think that Fagin still stands out. He is probably the only rapist in the entire Starcraft universe (if we exclude the two boys who try to rape Nova but they are too minor to count). He has a harem of 12 sex slaves. He also threatens to kill two dozen preteen kids if he doesn't get what he wants and kills one of them to emphasize his point. He also enslaves Nova (who at this point is a 15-year-old girl), tortures her to break her spirit and over the course of 6 months forces her to kill 74 people. Aside from those 74 people, he has killed many other innocent people over the years to the point where almost nobody remembers his real name anymore because he has killed them, he also shows next to no hesitation to kill his own men and he even kills his own daughter near the end. So, I would say that he passes the heinous standard with his resources especially considering that we already have Ezekiel Daun, Stanley Burgess and the Prisoner who also don't threaten entire planets.

Mitigating factors

There are a few things that I should mention, so, I apologize if this section is longer than usual.

The first one are his sex slaves. Parts of the book are presented from Fagin's POV, so we have explicit evidence that he doesn't care about FROM HIS OWN THOUGHTS. He simply cares about how they look and can't even remember their names but instead calls them by numbers. When he kills one of his sex slaves for displeasing him and then suffers from memory loss and then sees his corpse next to him, Fagin doesn't show any remorse over what he did. His exact thoughts are:

Funny, I don't remember shooting him.

Fagin has three kids but there is no indication that he cares about them. He kills his own daughter, Dani, because in his insanity he thought that he was pretending to be his son, Sam, and doesn't feel any remorse over it. There is also no indication that he loves Sam as well, because even while he thinks that his daughter is Sam, he still points a gun at her and threatens to shoot her if she doesn't call one of his men quickly enough to him. So, it's safe to say that his relationship with his kids is not mitigating either.

In the very first scene Fagin spares the life of a drug dealer who stole from him but that's pragmatic villainy because he thinks that if he simply kills him, there would be no effect on the other dealers but if he demotes him, then everybody will see what happens when you steal. Also, Fagin himself admits that he would draw satisfaction from killing the dealer but thinks that sparing would be more beneficial in the long run.

He treats the Pitcher nicely and always gives him the newest designer drugs even before they come out on the street. However, it's revealed that he does this simply to test their effects on the Pitcher's body before he sells them to his clients. Also, when he learns about the Pitcher's death, he doesn't react to it at all, outside of panic that he would be next.

Fagin is also angry at the Confederacy for bombing the planet of Korhal and gives a large donation to Arcturus Mengsk and his group, the Sons of Korhal. However, the reason why he is angry is because a lot of the shipments of drugs arrive from Korhal and the bombing damages Fagin's profits. He sends a large donation to Mengsk and the Sons of Korhal not because he believes in their cause but out of spite at the Confederacy for damaging his profits and desire to make their life harder.

There is also this quote from the book:

Tyrus's sister had worked as a sex dancer to pay for her hab, and died when one of her regular customers got annoyed when she wouldn't go home with him. Because Fagin was the type to reward loyalty, and because Tyrus had been a good soldier, Fagin had made sure that the customer in question died very slowly and very painfully, but that didn't bring Tyrus's sister back. It was the only thing that ever made the big man get emotional, so Markus could understand why he wouldn't want to be in a room with someone reminding him of it.

However, I don't think this is mitigating either for several reasons:

1) There is no indication that Fagin did it because he cares about Tyrus or because he is disgusted by the murder itself. The text itself says that he did it as a reward for Tyrus's loyalty and because he was good soldier which makes me think that this is a pragmatic villainy because he wants to retain Tyrus' loyalty.

2) The above quote that I posted is the only place in the entire book where this event is mentioned. It is something that happened in the past and we don't have any flashback to it.

3) Fagin is a guy who often displays pragmatic villainy (with the Pitcher and with the guy whose life he spared). Plus, there is no indication that Fagin cares about Tyrus (or about any of his men for that matter)

Also, when he throws Nova out on the streets to starve, Nova, who is able to read his mind, tells him these things to taunt him:

All right, I'll leave. But first, let me tell you something, Julius Antoine Dale. You're never going to get your mother to love you. None of the twelve people you keep locked up in the back rooms even like you - they're just scared of you. Everyone thinks you look like an idiot with the shaved head, since that look went out of style ten years ago. And one of your most trusted lieutenants is going to kill you.

This vaguely implies that Fagin might have some insecurity that his mother doesn't love him. However, I don't think this is mitigating for several reasons:

1) Fagin himself NEVER mentions his mother. He doesn't even think about her in the parts that are presented from his POV.

2) In the same line of dialogue, Nova also mocks Fagin that his sex slaves don't like him. However, there is explicit evidence that he doesn't care about them (I already mentioned why).

3) This is the main reason why I don't think this is mitigating. This is a quote of when Nova is leaving:

she heard one final thought from Fagin. It wasn't anger at what she'd revealed to him because, she now understood, they were all things he already knew, and they didn't scare him, not even the fact that he'd die at the hands of a trusted lieutenant. Perhaps it was because that was how he rose to power, so he expected the same to be visited on him. In any case, he had only one thought in mind: She'll be back. And then she'll be mine.

So, according to the text itself Fagin already knows that he is never going to get his mother to love him and he is not scared of this thought and he also doesn't experience any emotion when Nova taunts him over that. The only thing he is thinking about is how Nova will be back and will be his. So, I don't think this is mitigating because the implication that he MIGHT have some insecurity over this is VERY, VERY vague.

About a potential Freudian Excuse, the story mentions that he has humble beginnings and that he started out as a pavement wrestler and then he was a simple bruiser before becoming the leader of the biggest crime syndicate in the Gutter but there is no indication that he has any tragic backstory. Now, let's talk about his moral agency.

As I already mentioned in the EP, Fagin acquires a special device, so that he can control Nova. However, the device shouldn't be used for more than 7 hours straight while Fagin used it for 6 months straight and it has effect on his mental health. The side effects are huge losses of memory over short periods of time, greater susceptibility to violent outbursts and in the end, he even confuses his daughter for his son because his mind is playing tricks on him. However, I don't think he has moral agency issues and here is why:

1) He was a horrible person even before his psychosis. Before the device started affecting Fagin's mental health Fagin has already killed countless people in his life, was a rapist who has a harem of 12 sex slaves, used two dozen children as hostages and threatened to kill them. His plan to enslave Nova, torture her into submission and force her to kill people for him was also before he lost his sanity.

2) The person who delivered the device warned him about the consequences of wearing it for more than 7 hours. However, Fagin chose to ignore the warning and wear it permanently. So, the ensuing psychosis is Fagin's own fault.

3) It's true that Fagin becomes insane but there is no indication that he can't distinguish right and wrong in this state. He is still able to have normal conversations with other people and he is still able to command respect whenever he decides. The difference is that now Fagin is more prone to violent outbursts/killing when he is not pleased with something, suffers from memory loss and at one point confuses his daughter for his son and shoots her for "pretending" to be his son.

Conclusion

Despite the high heinous standard of the franchise and the many things I had to address in the "Mitigating factors" section, I still believe that Fagin is a keeper but the decision is up to you. Also, if you want, you can read the book here.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273871: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:21:05 PM

[up][up][up] It's...it's really confusing. Dark Bakura identifies as both Thief King Bakura and Zorc, and it's implied that the former's soul has merged with a shard of Zorc's soul. In the manga, Akhenaden's future self does the same thing, identifying himself as Zorc.

Zorc has the same general actions between the manga and anime, just with some different contexts. The 4kids dub however alters a lot of details about him, as well as softening his destructive actions and intentions.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 4th 2021 at 4:22:04 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#273872: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:37:47 PM

Since the moral agency standards have seemed to loosen I wonder if the kid/"pure evil" version of Buu could count. I haven't read the manga but the anime does make him a bit more clever such as him piecing together Goku's Spirit Bomb technique and attempting to attack him while he's charging it. And it's never exactly explained how he was created.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#273873: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:39:38 PM

[tup] Julius (may be time for the Star Craft page as we now have 4 franchise wide/video games, 3 from comics and 2 from books)

As for Kid Buu, he does have to compete with the insane standards of the Dragon Ball franchise.

SprayPay ??? from Who Knows? Since: Jun, 2017
???
#273874: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:43:57 PM

[tup] to Julius.

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43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#273875: Aug 4th 2021 at 1:46:49 PM

Yes to Julius. For Trunicht I'd also add that he glorifies the war-dead and specifically has the PKC target anyone who questions his propaganda, since it's his worst abuse in enforcing a society that'll either give to his whims for war or be murdered by legalized terrorists for decrying his self-glorifying combat.


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