TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27276: Jul 1st 2014 at 12:53:59 PM

Re: Du Pont: I don't think he did. Granted, he claims to execute Father's will by persecuting people displaying emotions without mercy, but with the reveal he comes across as a Straw Hypocrite Boomerang Bigot who considers himself above his own rules more than anything. Father seemed to be the real Utopianist before Du Pont succeeded him, or at least the way the current regime represents Father. Du Pont calls Father's image just one of many political tools they use.

I think what stands out is that in the brief scenes after Du Pont reveals himself as the real leader, he' not remotely concerned with saving the regime, but saving himself. His plea for mercy to Preston isn't that humanity will be reduced to chaos or anything of the sort, but that since he too feels emotions he should be spared. This just pisses off Preston even more when he recalls the death of the woman he tried to rescue from being incinerated earlier in the movie.

edited 1st Jul '14 12:55:23 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#27277: Jul 1st 2014 at 1:19:02 PM

After that analysis I'm willing to give Glaurung a [tup]. Du Pont's also a [tup] in my book.

[up]#27283: Was "dad serious" intentional?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27278: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:17:29 PM

Glaurung was already voted down. He doesn't stack with Morgoth/Melkor and Sauron, and unlike the two of them, he has no moral agency, having been created by Morgoth to be exactly what he is. He never has a choice, and the novel never suggests he has one. The fact that he acts against orders, by the way, is not proof of this, because he's Made of Evil. That he doesn't always do what Morgoth tells him to doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have the option of being good. Dragons in the Tolkein verse are built, from the ground up, to be weapons of evil. There are no good dragons, and there's a reason for that.

We had a lengthy discussion of this before. It was no then, and it really shouldn't be brought up again without doing a search. That reference to Glaurung should be cut from the Children of Hurin YMMV page.

edited 1st Jul '14 2:19:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27279: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:20:01 PM

"[Character] enjoys being evil and acts in ways not directly ordered by its superiors" does not mean the character has moral agency. One would expect a being that is Made of Evil and also sapient to enjoy doing what it does; that doesn't mean it is capable of choosing to stop.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#27280: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:21:45 PM

[up]Except that we have a canonical instance of Glaurung acting against Morgoth's express wishes, as I explicitly point out. He's obviously a sapient being, and I see no reason to assume that he came out programmed to be what he was (especially if, as has been theorized, he was a Maia who Morgoth Mode Locked into dragon-shape - Maiar definitely have moral agency). You can say Glaurung failed the heinous standard, but barring explicit Tolkien quotes to the contrary, I'll fight you tooth-and-nail that he had moral agency.

EDIT: I'll also contest that he was Made of Evil, as one of the defining traits of evil in Tolkien's Legendarium is that it cannot create true, new things of its own. Glaurung (or whatever his progenitors were, if he had them) must have been either a pre-existing natural being of some sort that Morgoth corrupted, or an evil Maia. If he was something Morgoth just cooked up in a lab, that flies in the face of what we're specifically and repeatedly told Morgoth's capacities are.

edited 1st Jul '14 2:24:57 PM by MasterGhandalf

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27281: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:25:17 PM

You're confusing volition with moral agency. Could Glaurung have ever made a choice to stop being evil — to reform, or beg forgiveness? That's the acid test here.

While Tolkien may have had personal doubts about the idea that any thinking being could ever be wholly evil, he fails to make that case for many of his villains and we're left with ambiguity over their true nature. He never rectified this within his body of work.

Anyway, Glaurung is settled. There's no new evidence being presented here.

edited 1st Jul '14 2:26:29 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#27282: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:30:48 PM

[up]Could Sauron? The one time he seriously considered it, he got cold feet, backed out, and returned to his old ways shortly thereafter. Not because he couldn't stop being evil for some metaphysical reason, but because submitting himself to a higher authority for judgment wasn't in his character. Or Morgoth, who used his whole parole in Valinor to screw with the Valar and Eldar while taking advantage of his brother's faith that he could reform, and certainly not making a real effort to actually reform. Nobody ever offered Glaurung the chance to change his ways, so we have absolutely no way to telling how he would have reacted. Besides, I think most C Ms are going to be so far gone that changing their ways isn't a realistic possibility, even if it is a theoretical one, so I'm not sure why you brought it up here.

Also, this may just be my personal philosophical stance coming through, but I always assume a character who has volition / free will has moral agency unless we have explicit evidence to the contrarynote , and also think that breeding a creature that had free will but not moral agency would be outside of Morgoth's demonstrated capabilities.

EDIT: I'm also a bit uncertain as to how we're applying the heinous standard to Middle-earth in the first place. Morgoth invented evil as a concept and introduced corruption to the world that continued to have an effect long after he was defeated. The guy's the whole reason the phrase "Arda Marred" exists, and nothing that anybody else - even Sauron, though he comes the closest - did can really measure up to that.

edited 1st Jul '14 2:57:41 PM by MasterGhandalf

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27283: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:05:31 PM

[up]He brought it up because Glaurung never had a chance to be anything other than evil. He was created to be evil. He was bred and trained to be evil. And then he was turned loose in the world to do evil. He never had the chance to be anything but evil, and that's what disqualifies him from the list.

In general we don't accept members of Always Chaotic Evil species onto the list, because there if you could never choose to be good in the first place, than you don't possess moral agency.

Regarding Middle-Earth, Morgoth chose to be evil and can thus qualify. Sauron chose to be evil, and can thus qualify. If you want to see the incredibly long and detailed discussion that resulted in Sauron going up, search his name. You'll find it. It was agreed that he was a keep because he is so much less powerful than his boss, yet comes as close as he can to achieving the same level of evil. Moreover, he does it of his own volition, has different goals, and eventually strikes out on his own.

None of that applies to Glaurung. He was created/bred/corrupted/whatever word you want to use by Morgoth for the express purpose of fulfilling Morgoth's will. A vast majority of what he does is just carrying out Morgoth's will, and whether he could ever have been anything else is not demonstrated—I would expect the answer is no since at no point in the entirety of Tolkein's work do we ever see an Always Chaotic Evil being try and be good. Every dragon, every orc, every spider, every goblin and every troll we meet is evil to the end—and that means we cannot in good conscience put him up on the list.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#27284: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:17:17 PM

[up]Okay, I'm genuinely curious- should we cut the Red King from The Dresden Files as well, under that logic? He's a member of an Always Chaotic Evil race (no fully-turned Red vampire is ever portrayed as anything but evil, though some are worse than others), and we have no idea of the circumstances of his vamping, and as such we can't know how much of is evil is him and how much is the natural end result of being a bloodsucking monster with godlike powers and five+ millennia to work. How's about Kerrigor from Sabriel? All free-willed dead spirits in those books are malicious, though Kerrigor is much worse than normal (he was likely evil as a human, but he only actually starts doing evil things that we have evidence of as one of the Dead). Similarly, though all observed Middle-earth dragons do things like unprovoked attacks on innocents and raids for treasure, Glaurung's systematic, sadistcic deconstruction of Turin and Nienor's lives is apparently unique and certainly beyond the norm. Smaug, Ancalagon, Scatha, and any of the unnamed dragons who appear or are alluded to at various points in the legendarium don't seem to match their ancestor for sheer cruelty. I genuinely want to know where we draw the line at exceptional members of Always Chaotic Evil races.

EDIT: Heck, most of what you said about Glaurung being created and sent forth to do evil is also applicable to Cell from Dragonball Z, who remains on the list. The only major distinction I'm seeing is that Cell's creator was no longer around to see his creation in action or exert any (direct) influence on him, while Glaurung's was.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as obnoxious, I'm just trying to wrap my head around why a villain who always struck me as exceptionally vile and loathsome can't qualify, while other characters who seem to have similar issues do.

edited 1st Jul '14 3:26:42 PM by MasterGhandalf

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27285: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:24:02 PM

Well, the Red Court is an interesting case. Remember that as long as a Red Court vampire fledgling withholds the urge, they're half-vampire, or still largely human. The reason they're evil is because they give into their darkness and become monsters by choice. However, Kukulkan, or the Red King, is not just any other vampire: he's the father and founder of the race. The argument of "how much is him" is actually addressed, though: he's losing his mind to his bloodthirst (or he's an amazing actor, both are possibilities). But notably, without his addictive bloodlust, he's not less evil. He's just not a feral animal.

the main issue, for me, is that he was somehow bred or corrupted by Morgoth. Upon reflection, however, I am not certain the Moral agency issue is very present. It's a fair point free will is a massive theme of Tolkien's works, and without knowing enough of Glaurung, but can't be said he lacks it. Tolkien admittedly handwaves the issue with orcs.

The problem, though, remains heinousness: Glaurung in The Children of Hurin is ating as Morgoth's proxy and will. Everything in that falls back to Morgoth himself. All he does there to Turin and Nienor is an extension of Morgoth's desire to torture their father for his resistance.

edited 1st Jul '14 3:27:15 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#27286: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:26:51 PM

[up][up]Kerrigor explicitly sold his soul in exchange for power. Rogerik chose to become one of the Greater Dead, which means that everything he does as Kerrigor is on him.

I don't know the Dresden Files well enough to talk about the Red King in detail, but if there's nobody in back of him, he's got a better shot at qualifying than Glaurung does. Glaurung was bred to be evil and is acting on orders from the setting's God of Evil. That's two disqualifying factors right there. Put 'em together with the fact that he's also fairly far down the list in terms of evil, and he's not liable to qualify.

Having one possible disqualifier might not be enough to keep you off the list, but when you have as many as Glaurung does it will.

edited 1st Jul '14 3:27:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#27287: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:30:14 PM

All right, though I still disagree, I think I see your points, 'specially about Kukulcan and Kerrigornote  and don't think I'm going to win this, unless a bunch of people unexpectedly come in to back me up. I'll just quietly file Glaurung away with Semirhage, Yakone, and other characters I personally consider C Ms but the thread shot down.

edited 1st Jul '14 3:36:04 PM by MasterGhandalf

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#27288: Jul 1st 2014 at 3:33:33 PM

K, Glaurung is taken down. What about Morgoth? Should we use his The Silmarillion write-up?

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#27289: Jul 1st 2014 at 4:02:40 PM

I am going to say [tup] to Du Pont.

So has anyone here been brave enough to watch the newest Transformers film to see if any of the characters count as Compete Monsters?

edited 1st Jul '14 5:17:59 PM by TheOverlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27290: Jul 1st 2014 at 4:08:57 PM

[up]Hell, they got rid of Shia LaDouche; I think that automatically makes it better.

edited 1st Jul '14 4:09:04 PM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27291: Jul 1st 2014 at 4:18:10 PM

Izuka!

  • Izuka, Ashnard's demented chief scholar, is no less evil than his master. In his brief cameo in Path of Radiance, he appears onscreen just long enough for it to be revealed that he is the developer of the Feral Ones, Laguz who are forcibly mode-locked into their beast forms and driven insane to be used as cannon fodder. In his base at Gritnea Tower it is revealed he has an entire basement devoted to storing the corpses of his experiments' victims. Izuka takes on a much greater role in the second game, where he has been hired by Lekain to bend Daein to Begnion's whims. He takes on the role of strategist to Daein's weak-willed Prince Pelleas, where it is demonstrated that he would gladly sacrifice good strategy for pointless destruction. He injects the innocent Warrior Poet Muarim with the Feral One drug, which would have annihilated his mind if not for Rafiel's intervention. When Begnion offers to make peace with Daein, Izuka springs his trap, telling Pelleas to sign a "peace treaty" that is actually a Blood Pact, mystically binding Pelleas and thus all of Daein into virtual slavery to Begnion. Finally, it is revealed that he's tested his drug on the Beorc, too, including turning Elincia's noble Uncle Renning into the Tragic Monster known as General Bertram.

How's that?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27292: Jul 1st 2014 at 6:48:15 PM

Massive improvement. HT, any others you think need a rewrite?

Here are some writeups:

For MAX

  • Barracuda, one of Frank Castle's most resilient and persistent enemies, is always ready with a laugh or a joke to conceal the black-hearted, soulless monster he truly is. Showing his nasty side by trying to feed Castle and a gangster who failed to pay him on time to a great white shark, 'Cuda later betrayed a man who had worked with him for years simply as he got a better offer. After being defeated by Frank once, Barracuda hunted down an ally of Frank's and murdered him and the man's wife for information before kidnapping Frank's infant daughter to torture her to death in front of Frank. In the Fury series, Barracuda was revealed as even worse: a former Green Beret in Nicaragua, Barracuda executed members of the government by chainsaw after trying to psychologically torture them and assisted in the atrocities of the contras for extra cash. To prove a point of how little the US uniform meant to him, he kicked a decapitated child at Nick Fury. Defined by selfishness, cruelty and his willingness to betray anyone for a buck, not even the 'Barracuda charm' can disguise what a savage he truly is.

  • The Crime Master, the inheritor of 'The Goblin' and even more evil. The new up and coming mobster is introduced directing his enforcer, the Sandman, to squeeze a man's head until it explodes, with ruthless extortion and murder being part of his normal functions. What sets him apart from other mobsters is when he, with his Nazi benefactors, begins having black citizens kidnapped and given to Otto Octavius for his torturous experiments. When he realizes the authorities are on to them, the Crime Master opts to try to murder the civilians, calling them 'livestock,' by forcing them into a furnace. Also the boyfriend of Felicia Hardy, when he discovers her relationship with Spider-Man, he viciously tortures her and scars her face hideously with a shard of glass.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27293: Jul 1st 2014 at 7:25:47 PM

[up] Manfroy and Gharnef are my other two trouble spots, but, again, I'm not well versed in the Archanaea and Jugdral continuities.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27294: Jul 1st 2014 at 7:54:28 PM

I can handle Manfroy at least.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27295: Jul 2nd 2014 at 2:46:21 AM

Crime Master tweak (BTW, we may have an issue with Doc Ock, as Spider-Man Noir says

Otto Octavious, angry at the Crime Master callous killing, stabs him to death with his surgical implements
Is that EEHS or Pragmatic Villainy?
  • The Crime Master, also from Noir, is the inheritor of “The Goblin” and even more evil. The new up and coming mobster is introduced directing his enforcer, the Sandman, to squeeze a man's head until it explodes, with ruthless extortion and murder being part of his normal functions. What sets him apart from other mobsters is when he, with his Nazi benefactors, begins having black citizens kidnapped and given to Otto Octavius for his torturous experiments. When he realizes the authorities are on to them, the Crime Master opts to try to murder the civilians, calling them “livestock,” by forcing them into a furnace. Also the boyfriend of Felicia Hardy, when he discovers her relationship with Spider-Man, he viciously tortures her and scars her face hideously with a shard of glass.
'Cuda (Was he ever voted yes? I don't know if a tally was done):
  • Barracuda, one of Frank Castle's most resilient and persistent enemies, is always ready with a laugh or a joke to conceal the black-hearted, soulless monster he truly is. Showing his nasty side by trying to feed Castle and a gangster who failed to pay him on time to a great white shark, 'Cuda later betrayed a man who had worked with him for years simply because he got a better offer. After being defeated by Frank once, Barracuda hunted down an ally of Frank's and murdered him and the man's wife for information before kidnapping Frank's infant daughter to torture her to death in front of Frank. In Fury: My War Gone By, Barracuda was revealed as even worse: a former Green Beret in Nicaragua, Barracuda executed members of the government by chainsaw after trying to psychologically torture them; he also assisted in the atrocities of the Contras for extra cash. To prove a point of how little the US uniform meant to him, he kicked a decapitated child at Nick Fury. Defined by selfishness, cruelty and his willingness to betray anyone for a buck, not even the “Barracuda charm” can disguise what a savage he truly is.

edited 2nd Jul '14 6:03:53 AM by ACW

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#27296: Jul 2nd 2014 at 4:37:00 AM

[up]#27301: I'll watch it! ...when it premiers around here in eight days. It's funny, some films we get weeks after the US and others we even get before y'all Americans.

edited 2nd Jul '14 4:37:51 AM by LordXavius

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27297: Jul 2nd 2014 at 5:53:53 AM

Octavius was only angry his experiment was being ruined.

What Crime Master did to Felicia, though, meant Peter didn't lift a finger to save him.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27298: Jul 2nd 2014 at 6:04:51 AM

[up]Ah. Why did Crime Master ruin Otto's experiment anyway? I did research and can't quite get a clear answer. And I'll assume he didn't love Felicia (before he slashed her face anyway).

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27299: Jul 2nd 2014 at 6:09:28 AM

I said so in my proposition. There was too much heat generated by the mass disappearance for even the most racist police force to ignore

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#27300: Jul 2nd 2014 at 6:12:58 AM

Because DC was split up into Pre/Post-Crisis and New 52: Black Manta is listed on Post-Crisis, but his murder of Aquaman's son was Pre-Crisis. Should I move him there?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

Total posts: 326,048
Top