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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#272851: Jul 27th 2021 at 5:54:53 AM

[tup] Kesserling

We’re defiantly getting a page after the Trunicht ep

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#272852: Jul 27th 2021 at 6:01:21 AM

Isn't Trunchbill identical to the book there (I love that film).

Don't see a need for a new entry.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272853: Jul 27th 2021 at 6:12:03 AM

Also, isn't "sending the entire school to a five hours detention, when they will copy the dictionary" like, a little too trivial for this trope?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#272856: Jul 27th 2021 at 6:35:53 AM

I f-ing love the Matilda movie and yeah, Trunchbull is pretty much the same as she was in the book. She doesn't need a separate entry. She counts by default.

So yeah, my saying [tup] isn't really necessary at this point. It's like how I might've mentioned on MB recently that while the book version of Plutarch counts as MB, he doesn't have much added to him in the movies and therefore, counts there too by extension and rather easily at that.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 27th 2021 at 7:54:50 AM

Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#272857: Jul 27th 2021 at 6:47:22 AM

For the record, if the next movie I plan to watch has a CM, they'll be a human, since it's a slasher movie, so don't worry on THAT front.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#272858: Jul 27th 2021 at 6:56:06 AM

I am a bit more comfortable giving a small[tup]to the Demon with Wolf’s clearing

[tup]Lex

Technically [tup] to Truchbull, but that’s only because she’s the exact same as her literary counterpart, so [tdown]

Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 27th 2021 at 6:56:25 AM

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#272859: Jul 27th 2021 at 7:27:48 AM

Uh, for the record, it Gien, not Don Dolnero, who released that monster, and he did it for fun.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#272860: Jul 27th 2021 at 7:50:16 AM

I faintly remember the Trunchbull locking Matilda in the Chokey in the film and not the book, but I don't think it's enough for a separate EP.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#272861: Jul 27th 2021 at 7:53:04 AM

[up]While I haven't read the book version of The Witches, this does not sound like a case at all where both the book and film versions each count separately because there are clear differences. The 1996 film version of Trunchbull counts here BECAUSE she's no different from the book one who already counts—much like the book versions of Voldemort, Bellatrix and Umbridge carry over into the movies too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 27th 2021 at 7:55:36 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#272862: Jul 27th 2021 at 8:12:10 AM

Well I do agree that Film!Trunchbull isn't worth a seperate writeup I do wonder if maybe we should copy her entry to the Live-Action Films page is there is some Adaptation Displacement going on here much like with Coraline, I for a while didn't even know Matilda was based of a book.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#272863: Jul 27th 2021 at 8:14:42 AM

[up]Probably not necessary. If the film has a separate YMMV, then we can just link to the book YMMV for the entry there.

Even before today, Pam Ferris was already in the Actor sandbox and Danny DeVito in the Director one.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#272864: Jul 27th 2021 at 8:36:47 AM

[tup] to Nezu, Rupert Kesserling and Lex Luthor.

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#272865: Jul 27th 2021 at 8:50:19 AM

[tup] to Lex and Derek Frost. Do you have any quote for Lo GH's page?

Edited by DrScavenge27 on Jul 27th 2021 at 9:37:54 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#272866: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:17:44 AM

Yeah to another Luthor

Meanwhile, I’ve got a bit of a logistical question myself right now. Basically, I’m playing a game called Crackdown right now, where you’re an Agent sent into a city because it’s essentially become the Forever Purge and you need to restore order by any means necessary. The Director of the Agency is later revealed to have been the one to cause the mess in the first place, allowing the gangs to rise to power and then manipulating the Agents to take them out so he can swoop in and create a totalitarian state. The thing is, we don’t ever see him in person, we only hear his voice. It’s constant and more than enough to establish a personality, since he’s talking to you throughout the entire game to give you intel and tips, but again, no physical appearance as far as I can see. Is a candidate like that viable, or do they need the physical appearance, however brief it might be?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#272867: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:22:07 AM

[up] So long as he has enough personality from his voice, not being onscreen is zero bar for me, personally.

Sure to Lex

Alright, here's a quickie one who came through the thread a good few years back, but lemme just give him a proper re-eval:

What's the work?

Source Code is a great sci-fi thriller film from 2011 starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Michelle Monaghan, among others. It features Captain Steven Colter, a grievously wounded air force pilot, who has been hooked up to a VR simulation called the "Source Code", in which he is able to relive the last 8 minutes of a train passenger murdered in a terrorist attack. Colter must use the "Groundhog Day" Loop simulation to try to deduce the identity of the bomber so as to warn the military in real life as to his next target, but Colter also begins to find a way to perhaps create an alternate timeline entirely.

Who is Derek Frost? What has he done?

An unassuming passenger on the train for most of the film, Derek Frost is revealed to be the Mad Bomber behind the film's plot, driven by a vague anti-government rhetoric and smug belief in "rebuilding" the world "from rubble."

In real life, Derek bombed a train and killed well over 100 people to serve as a test run of his bombs, at which point he intends to drive a dirty bomb into the middle of Chicago and kill, at the least, 2 million people.

In the alternate reality in which Colter deduces Derek's identity and confronts him, Derek cheerfully reveals his plans to Colter and brags how smart he is to have developed the bombs, before shooting him and his Love Interest Christina dead. Snarking "I think I killed your girlfriend," Derek leaves Colter and Christina to die as the train is destroyed and he continues with his plans.

Luckily, Colter eventually goes through the loop enough times to finally outdo Derek, handcuffing him and calling the police in his name:

"Hey. My name is Derek Frost. I planted a nuclear device in a white van parked in the Glenbrook Station CCR parking lot. Right now I'm handcuffed to a pole on the 944 CCR train headed to Chicago Union Station. I am a sick and pathetic human being. And I need to be locked away for a very long time."

In this alternate timeline, the initial bombing is thwarted and Derek is arrested and taken down, and though in real life his train bombing succeeded, Colter's efforts still save Chicago from his dirty bomb, as he relays Derek's identity to the military and they take him down.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Right, so, when he was originally brought up, we got three main arguments:

The first two? Are utter crap. Derek shows zero signs of mental illness—he's got Dissonant Serenity and Faux Affably Evil as traits, and he sheds a Single Tear when Derek takes him down and delivers his “The Reason You Suck” Speech, but there is no indicator of disqualifying mental issues. As for GDV...lol, no, this was a very bad argument brought about by people who either hadn't seen the film or admitted to finding it badly written/boring and obviously showed their bias and trope misuse in this accusation.

Now, the last one is interesting. Derek is revealed to have an "anti-government website", and when a horrified Colter pleads to know "Why?", Derek gleefully, smugly proclaims:

"Oh. You mean, "Why this?" Because the world is hell! But we have a chance to start over in the rubble! But first...well, there has to be rubble. You're a history teacher, you understand."

Aaaaand that's the extent of it. No, I don't get genuine WIE vibes from this, not when Derek is shown to be a Faux Affably Evil Smug Snake who brags about how "Not just ANYONE could make a bomb like that!", and mocks Colter like a smug bully. His line is so utterly vague about intent or belief that gleaming "well he's a WIE genuinely looking out for his fellow man" from it isn't any more likely than "well he's a Knight Templar who wants to kill millions to institute what he believes is a rebuilt world", and given the personality we get from Derek and that he delivers this mini-Motive Rant with the same air of taunting superiority, I'm far less inclined to believe the former is what we're looking at with this.

Heinousness?

Mad Bomber who kills hundreds in a train bombing, intends to kill millions with a dirty bomb, and when Colter tries to stop him in the alternate timeline, Derek shoots him dead then does the same to the harmless, fleeing Christina. The dialogue of other characters also heavily implies he's got even more targets lined up. He passes well enough past even the typical sci-fi thriller baseline.

Final Verdict?

I'm a 'Yes' to Derek, with re-evaluation. He's not mentally ill, he's not a GDV, and while I can see some debate over him as a WIE...it's really not properly disqualifying to me when Derek's whole personality is that of a narcissistic creep who is so concerned with his ego that he takes time to brag how special his bomb is, talks down to Colter, and then sheds tears when Colter takes him down and calls him out on what a "sick and pathetic" person he is.

Edited by Ravok on Jul 27th 2021 at 9:23:36 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#272868: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:24:05 AM

Yeah to Frost.

[down][down] Did you read the EP? It goes in-depth about why he isn’t.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 27th 2021 at 12:29:15 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#272869: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:24:28 AM

[tup]Frost

Remember this prick. He was downvoted really... I didn't get that impression that he was a wie or something from the film..

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#272870: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:25:02 AM

Considering that we just disquaified Hichachi for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist who's motives were never disputed I will have to say a weak [tdown].

[up][up] I did read it nothing really seems to outright debunk it that Ravok mentioned.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 27th 2021 at 9:30:15 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#272871: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:26:11 AM

Sure to Frost

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#272872: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:38:01 AM

Abstain on Frost read it and while I buy the first two rebuttals I am not fully unconvinced hes a NSWIE

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#272873: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:38:36 AM

A WIE is someone, by the trope's standards, who is shown to believe that what they are doing is the best thing for humanity as a whole and to make the world and people in it a better place.

Nothing Derek says or does gives those indications. "The world is hell so I'mma bomb millions to rebuild it", said with a smug smile on his face after shooting an innocent woman and then mocking Colter over it, is not proper WIE motive by my measure—it's at best Knight Templar fanaticism, at worst just vague misanthropic, egotistical rhetoric by a smug nutbar who's depicted as a typical "internet blogger who hates the government." He's not built up as some disillusioned man who wants the best for the world, he's depicted as an insufferably smug, narcisstic creep, and between that and the very barebones Motive Rant where one has to legitimately reach to gleam WIE from it, and I personally can't see the WIE arguments even needing proper debunking because there's so little proof in the film proper.

Edited by Ravok on Jul 27th 2021 at 9:39:55 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#272874: Jul 27th 2021 at 9:40:35 AM

Without a proper subversion I don't really see it I mean CM's have been disqualified for a single line that implies a redeeming quality.


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