During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@ Hodor: Just a correction, but Styr was the one who killed the boy's mother with an axe before grabbing the kid, not Ygritte. She killed the father with an arrow. There's also the massacre Styr shows he perpetrated before his intro and without either Tormund or Ygritte's participation.
On it being their day job, that actually reminds me about the argument that was used to ultimately keep Durge. Namely, that out of all three Styr is the only one whose job you could say is killing innocents all the time and would do so even if there weren't a war. Tormund and Ygritte are also killing people south of the wall, but neither of them is a cannibal or implied to be quite so vicious in their homeland. The Thenns' whole way of life even before they started the march south is to hunt down members of other Wildling tribes and eat them.
@ Camberf: I'm divided on that, myself. He could be judged by the standards of Wildling society, he could be judged solely by how the Thenns in general behave. I don't really see a reason to favor either implicitly.
edited 29th Jun '14 2:38:47 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"One character I'd like to revisit as well...Marvel MAX's Barracuda. After The Fury M Ax stuff, Barracuda resurfaced in flashbacks, where he got even worse: selling drugs to finance the Nicaraguan cartels in their massacres as long as he gets a cut (and hammers in the point how little he cares by kicking a decapitated infant at Nick fury).
Before that, he tries to psychologically torture captives before murdering them with a chainsaw.
So, I think the characters listed at Fire Emblem could do with some rewrites. It's better than it used to be, but it still has too many exclamation points!, bold type and italics for my liking, anyway.
Here's Lekain:
- Vice-Minister Lekain, Duke of Gaddos, is a high-ranking politician of the Theocracy of Begnion and seniormost member of the country's corrupt senate who is driven by his insatiable desire for more power and hatred for the Laguz. When Begnion's Empress Misaha emancipated the country's Laguz slaves and, what's more, planned to reveal that the entire royal lineage of Begnion was Branded, Lekain had her poisoned, then, pinning the crime on the peaceful Heron Laguz, whipped his countrymen into a genocidal frenzy, reducing the Herons' population from thousands to four in a single night. He then conspired for Misaha's young granddaughter Sanaki and a young senator by the name of Sephiran to be elevated to the positions of Empress and Prime Minister respectively, the only positions higher than his own, while he held the real power from the shadows. After Daein lost the war to Crimea, Lekain had the defeated nation annexed by Begnion, and gave Duke Numida and General Jarod free reign to do what they pleased with it. When Daein declared independence, Lekain tricked its new king, Pelleas, into making a Blood Pact with him, a mystical document that conscripts one nation in service to another under penalty of its citizens dropping dead one by one. Using this magic Lekain enslaves Pelleas and the entire Daein army to act as his accomplices in a war which Lekain plans to use to wipe the Laguz species off the face of the Earth.
Whew! Fun fact: Lekain has seventeen unique boss conversations with different allied units, the most in the game if not the series. That's how many people he's personally pissed off.
edited 29th Jun '14 3:42:32 PM by HamburgerTime
For your Complete Monster Live Action TV Sandbox, why not just keep Angelus listed under Buffy The Vampire Slayer like he already is instead of under Buffyverse?
edited 29th Jun '14 4:09:53 PM by OccasionalExister
Wasn't he on Angel as well? I don't remember any of this on Buffy:
edited 29th Jun '14 4:13:06 PM by ACW
@Lightysnake,
There are a couple strikes against Barracuda as a CM. First of all, Barracuda has a decent Freudian Excuse, his dad was inhumanly abusive towards him. So much so that during a fight with the Punisher, he had flashbacks to his father abusing him and went wild, fighting with much more fury then he had before. His dad's abuse really seemed to screw him up.
Second, Barracuda got a mini series back in 2007 and because a CM protagonist is a hard sell (you have no reason to care whether he succeeds) they gave him some humanizing traits in that mini series. He gained a sidekick, a hemophiliac son of a powerful mobster named Oswald. The mobster hired Barracuda to kill a South American dictator and to take his son Oswald with him, to "toughen him up", because the mob boss saw his son as a wimp and a loser. The thing is Barracuda takes a shine to Oswald, sure he is willing to use Oswald a pawn to take over his father's criminal empire, but he seemed to care about Oswald's well being in a more sympathetic way. He got injured while protecting Oswald during a gun fight, saves him from being raped by some demented priest and seemed genuinely interested in turning Oswald from a nerd into a "bad ass", which seems to be Barracuda's own warped helping him get out of his shell. Barracuda killed Oswald by accident, giving Oswald a very strong pat on the back when he thought Oswald did something "bad ass" which triggered his hemophilia, killing him in the process.
Third, I don't think Barracuda is always as evil as he could be. In one story he kidnaps Punisher's infant daughter and makes Punisher think he killed her, just to mess with him. However he really didn't kill Punisher's daughter, it was all just a trick. Personally I think the only reason Barracuda wouldn't kill Punisher's real infant daughter, is he had a problem with murdering infants. I can't think of another reason Barracuda would spare Punisher's daughter. There is at least some ambiguity there.
Put these factors together and Barracuda is close, but no cigar, especially with all the nasty Complete Monsters in Punisher Max, that raise the bar really high.
edited 29th Jun '14 4:38:03 PM by TheOverlord
Wait, a tic, Overlord, several things:
The Freudian Excuse isn't what I call valid. For starters, Barracuda never seems to remember it. It also doesn't really make him sympathetic. It's introduced at the end, subconsciously, and then he simply snaps. He's not the only guy with an abusive dad on the list. Look at Wilson Fisk or Bullseye from the regular Marvel MU. Barracuda is just shown as a nasty, sadistic and calculating scumbag most of the time.
Also, he wasn't gonna kill Frank's infant daughter? He shot a doll he was pretending was said daughter to rattle Frank. Barracuda says flat out the only reason she's still alive is so he can apprehend Frank and then torture her to death in front of him. He even says, when nobody else is around "just cause ol' Cuda feedin' you don't mean you tuggin' on his heartstrings. You only alive so I can hurt yo' daddy. You ain't lasting longer'n that, bitch." The only reason he spared her there was so he could capture Frank and carve baby Sarah up in front of him. If that wasn't enough, when he loses his mind to rage, he plans to eat her alive in front of Frank. He's killed children before as well: in the Fury mini, like I said, he kicks the beheaded corpse of an infant at Nick Fury to taunt him.
Also, the miniseries does not give Barrauda any redeeming traits. He doesn't care at all that he killed Oswald. He just goes "meh," and then forgets it, before implying he's gonna be cannibalizing his supposed love interest. His 'friend' in that arc Cuda heartlessly uses to cover his escape while feigning respect before snickering 'dumbass' behind the guy's back. It's a running theme with 'Cuda. He's very friendly to people, charming and buddy-buddy, but when the chips are down he gives no fucks about them. Protecting Oswald was his job, and what Oswald stoof to inherit meant Barracuda had a vested interest in being his pal
Compare in arc 1: 'Cuda betrays a man he's been working with for well over a decade. The two have a great relationship and Barracuda says he always pays his debts to him with extra bonuses. Then Barracuda double crosses him when he gets a better offer, stating he has no loyalty to him. He cheerfully buddies up to the guy's replacement, but makes an offhanded comment to the man's girlfriend that he doesn't expect guy number 2 to last long at all. His old friend from the army?? In his miniseries, 'Cuda treats like a brother...then reveals he doesn't care about him whatsoever.
In the Fury mini, Barracuda comments that it's "time to turn on the ol' barracuda charm", indicating further his affability is just an act.
edited 29th Jun '14 5:06:59 PM by Lightysnake
I guess Angelus's entry could just go under Buffy The Vampire Slayer. After all the Joker's entry under BTAS covers his crimes throughout the DCAU.
edited 29th Jun '14 5:58:37 PM by TVRulezAgain
I think I'll say no to Styr for the reasons Exister listed. While he sounds worse than the other Wildlings, it doesn't sound like he's enough worse. Since the Durge comparison keeps coming up, I'll note a key difference between the two—Durge is from a race of pacifists and left home to become a Psycho for Hire. Styr is from a whole clan of cannibals.
Angel Eyes' entry should be put back on the YMMV page for The Good The Bad And The Ugly. If his entry didn't indicate that he was bad enough, he needs a new entry and I'll gladly provide one.
Good write-up for Lekain, HT.
Would suggest calling Vitiate by his name in the entry for the Star Wars page. The current entry confused me, and I'm a bigger Star Wars geek than many.
I think I'll say no to Barracuda, not because he isn't a relentlessly awful human being, but because the slavers, Cavella, Rawlins, MAX!Bullseye and MAX!Kingpin are as bad or worse. At this rate we'd have listed almost all the MAX villains, and that doesn't seem right to me.
I just noticed that the Film page now exceeds the character limit. We may have to request a split.
I checked the source of the page and Monster.Film is very long at 244294 characters. How about splitting into three subpages according to the title of the film?
edited 29th Jun '14 10:09:38 PM by despoa
Hold on, I think I can whip up some sandboxes for the Film subpages. I just need time.
EDIT: And here it is.
Sandbox.CompleteMonsterFilm0ToE
Sandbox.CompleteMonsterFilmFToO
Sandbox.CompleteMonsterFilmPToZ
edited 29th Jun '14 10:38:05 PM by despoa
What is the context of Styr threatening to eat Ygritte? I think killing his own allies, especially if it's only For the Evulz, might push him over into Complete Monster territory.
edited 30th Jun '14 6:33:01 AM by Druplesnubb
Okay for El internado, Ritter Wulf and Jacques Noiret need to be cut. I found this under Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas:
- Inverted in case of Big Bad Ritter Wulf. He is one of the most hated characters in the series for what he does to the main characters... but most of what he does is for her first daughter Eva who got infected with The Virus he had developed and he started to work on finding a cure for his daughter, even if it meant cloning her twice, experimenting both with the clones and with many other orphans and finally intending to kill Paula in order to harvest her organs and use them to revive Eva.
- Also inverted with Jacques Noiret. He is perfectly willing to blackmail his son Iván if he doesn't do what he (Jacques) wants, but when he meets his son from other relationship, he realises what a bastard he has been and lets Iván go when having to choose between shooting him or letting him destroy the plans Wulf has been working on for many years. Of course, this turns him mad.

And another point in favour of Markus - yes it's a Crapsack World, but Markus and Hitler are the only characters who kill people solely because they like it, rather than to win the war or because they hate the enemy for what they did to them.