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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#27151: Jun 28th 2014 at 9:16:42 AM

[up][up]Moved the last one to Pragmatic Villainy.

EDIT: I finished Guardian Angel, so my Leonid rewrite is almost done.

edited 28th Jun '14 12:26:03 PM by randomtroper89

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#27152: Jun 28th 2014 at 9:44:02 AM

Karlo has this on his character page:

  • Flanderization: Karlo was previously characterized as an ego-maniacal actor, but then writers and artists began depicting him more like the Clayface from the animated series, who was more-or-less an amalgamation of the first four Clayfaces, but more predominately Matt Hagen, the second. The difficulty in this is that, the comic version of Hagen died during Crisis On Infinite Earths, and has remained dead. Unless it's outright stated in the story featuring him, readers have a hard time telling if Clayface is Karlo or Hagen.

Also, for the Buffy Verse entries, maybe they could say "along with Angelus (see Buffyverse)"

edited 28th Jun '14 9:44:12 AM by TVRulezAgain

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27153: Jun 28th 2014 at 10:20:31 AM

Anyways, Morgen, should we add both Johnny Favorite and Lucifer?

And as for Darkseid...he loved Sulli. Once. Long ago. He doesn't any more. That was long before he truly became Darkseid, back when he was Uxas.

And Sleez says Darkseid just kinda stopped being amused with his level of petty evil is all.

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#27154: Jun 28th 2014 at 10:40:23 AM

I sat through Transformers 3 once, when it came out. I was reviewing it for my school paper. It did not get a good writeup, and fortunately, I've forgotten most of it. But my memory is that "in lust with Carly" is a good way of putting it.

As for Film!Parallax - yes, definitely a Generic Doomsday Villain. Parallax is basically a big yellow cloud with tentacles that gets zero actual personality.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27155: Jun 28th 2014 at 11:48:06 AM

I'll cut the Darkseid redeeming trait tropes as misuses, then.

[up][up] I would say yes, since I can't see either as more heinous than the other. They're both pure evil bastards complicit in about the same crimes that resulted in a lot of gruesome deaths. Of course Satan also eats countless souls, but that's just a power thing (and Favourite is Not So Different from Lucifer in that regard, come to think of it). One after all is just a human occultist, the other the Prince of Darkness.

What do you think of the Van Damme villains I suggested, btw?

edited 28th Jun '14 11:49:25 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27156: Jun 28th 2014 at 11:56:52 AM

Oh, definite yes to them there.

I have another example from the Jonah Hex comics I want to bring up shortly as well.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27157: Jun 28th 2014 at 12:40:17 PM

Anyone wanna do a Deathshead writeup?

[nja]Or Arena!Arcade (lighty?)?

edited 28th Jun '14 3:35:20 PM by ACW

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#27158: Jun 28th 2014 at 1:08:33 PM

Not letting your own minions die needlessly is just common sense, not anything redeeming. I also agree that Gould still is a CM, and that Film-Parallax is way too GDV.

LondonKdS Since: Apr, 2009
#27159: Jun 28th 2014 at 3:58:26 PM

Suggested example: Markus "Siegfried" Jung from Über. There are a lot of really reprehensible characters in the story, but Markus stands out for the following reasons:

  • He's a really, really fanatical Nazi.
  • Almost the first thing he's seen doing is massacring hundreds of thousands of Soviet prisoners with his energy bolt powers.
  • Later on, when accused of being squeamish because he used his energy bolt powers, he says that he wishes that he'd had the time to strangle them to death one by one with his bare hands.
  • When he was only ten or eleven, he murdered a random Jew in the street by throwing molten lead in the man's face.
  • Even his fellow Nazi super-soldiers loathe and despise him for being a sadistic monster.
  • Literally the only person with a good word to say for him is Adolf Hitler. THE Adolf Hitler.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#27160: Jun 28th 2014 at 4:25:45 PM

@27104: Good write-up for Lorne Malvo.

@27112: Also a good write-up for Stossuhl.

@27134: Those three sound like keepers.

@27136: Air Jay write-up looks good.

@27144: Honestly, that doesn't look good at all.

@27156: Jenna and Jerjerrod write-ups look good.

@27158: I'd be hope to hear more of an argument for Karlo, but Joker and Black Mask are pretty steep competition.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#27161: Jun 28th 2014 at 4:44:38 PM

Any other thoughts on Remake!Freddy?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27162: Jun 28th 2014 at 4:57:06 PM

I'd say Hitler and Markus are both equal competitors from Uber, even though the allies are no saints. Markus is a murderous sadist who loves slaughtering everything he can with a true love for killing 'inferior' races. His two fellow super soldiers, Sieglinde and Siegmund even call him "the little sadist" from disgust.

however, Uber is so clearly ongoing and is only ending its first major arc. Hitler, however...well, no issues adding him now if you get my drift.

Markus can probably go on, though, as the chances of him getting any redeeming qualities are nil

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27163: Jun 28th 2014 at 4:59:52 PM

Markus...even his fellow Nazis think he's bad? He's killed hundreds of thousands? He was a kid when he killed a Jew? That work seems like a Crapsack World, but Markus seems like a [tup]

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27164: Jun 28th 2014 at 5:05:37 PM

In the Uber special issue, Markus reminisces upon, as a child in post WW 1 Germany, his mother took his toys away to prove a point about the German surrender while ranting about Jews. Markus murdered a Jewish man for no bloody reason, and his mother, impliedly knew and approved.

The other two Ubers are Klaudia, AKA Sieglinde, who has a lot of redeeming qualities. She causes a lot of damage, but it's revealed her motivation is in revenge for her beloved husband who died in the firebombing of Dresden after he'd been crippled. Klaudia also displays a sense of honor and humanity. Siegmund is almost a flat out anti-villain. He's revealed to be a survivor of the Battle of Kursk who wants to murder Hitler for the deaths of so many of his friends for nothing more than Adolf's ego and paranoia. Siegmunde also loathes Markus and has a woman he clearly cares for. His 'worst' trait besides the whole...fighting for the Nazis thing, is he's a bit of a coward. He doesn't just want to kill Hitler, he wants to kill Hitler and live.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27165: Jun 28th 2014 at 5:20:08 PM

[up] Does his mother's influence count as a mitigating factor? It kinda sounds like she sort of steered his life inn that direction, honestly.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27166: Jun 28th 2014 at 5:40:38 PM

No, honestly. Markus made the decision to become a murderer on all his own, and while she approved, she didn't direct him there. Furthermore, Markus doesn't just limit himself to Jews. He enjoys hurting anyone.

and having a parent instill in you racial hatred is an awful excuse. Markus isn't a victim

edited 28th Jun '14 5:47:30 PM by Lightysnake

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#27167: Jun 28th 2014 at 6:09:02 PM

Does anyone mind if I go to the edit request page and sugest that Tong Fo be cut for this line in "Mind Over Manners"?:

"I failed you grandpypa(his grandfather, and if he refers to him like, that, I'm almost certain he loved him), I wanted to make you so proud".

jjj
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#27168: Jun 28th 2014 at 8:48:41 PM

go right ahead.

Anyways, here's my proposal...

From Jonah Hex we have "Sawbones," or true name William Zimmerman. Zimmerman is a Serial Killer focused on 'doctor' work.

Who Is He?

Sawbones was a doctor during the Civil War with the Confederate Army where he met Jonah Hex. During that time period, Sawbones was fond of operating on his captives. When he had an enemy soldier in his clutches, Sawbones would show his soldiers and apprentices how to torture. One incident had him removing a man's face to demonstrate how long they could last. Unfortunately, after the war...well, Sawbones didn't stop.

What's He Done?

Besides the above, Sawbones is basically a Serial Killer . after the war, he could no longer get away with doing this under even a little. To satisfy his desire to cut others up, he takes to targeting young women and girls. the comic featuring him opens with him lobotomizing a woman begging for her life and grabbing a saw to saw her head off. H Sawbones also has a set of apprentices that he sends about to commit other tortures on people. By the time Hex finishes him, Sawbones has claimed at least 20 victims that we know of.

If that wasn't enough, he tortures Hex, too. Thanks to his knowledge of the human body, Sawbones also has an incredible intuition on how to hurt people.

Freudian Excuse? None. Sawbones does it because he likes it.

now, the Jonah Hex heinous standard is ridiculously high, with people getting killed every issue. Most killers, however, are barely fleshed out or characterized much, Sawbones...is. Quite a bit. He also has an incredibly high bod count, that numbers in the dozens. It's not only more than any individual killer, it's more than most gangs. With his apprentices, he probably has way, way more and throw in a side order of cold-blooded torture?

Easy keep

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#27169: Jun 28th 2014 at 8:55:31 PM

I say [tup] to Sawbones.

There is a problem with Basil Karlo (Clayface) as a CM, in Batgirl 13, Karlo was trying to break into a bank and Batgirl (Stephanie Brown version) defeated him. It seemed like he was not interested in money, but he wanted to get a picture of his late wife from a safety deposit box. He missed his late wife and that is why he wanted to steal the picture. Sure he murdered people to get that picture, but that story did show Karlo cared about someone besides himself.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:09:32 PM by TheOverlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27170: Jun 29th 2014 at 12:03:41 AM

[up]Well, that makes it easy for Clayface. And I see no reason why Sawbones is anything but a [tup].

[nja]In about 5 days I'll request the TV swap and the Sentai swap.

edited 29th Jun '14 1:12:41 AM by ACW

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27171: Jun 29th 2014 at 6:02:05 AM

[tup] For Sawbones. Keep for Markus, but let's wait until the arc has been completed. As for Hitler, I presume he has pretty much the same body count (well, probably larger since the war continued with new armies of super soldiers) and motives as the real guy, but without personal redeeming traits?

@ TV Rulez Again: Since Remake!Freddy has three or four yay votes and no nays, I think he's passed.

I have two new candidates:


I got to thinking, and I believe Styr of the Thenns from Game of Thrones might qualify. He's certainly one of the nastiest Wildlings the show has featured so far and is given a similar level of Adaptational Villainy as Karl Tanner from the books.

The heinous standard is pretty high (though lower than the source material), but Styr's entire arc revolved around killing everything in sight. I believe he's the first onscreen cannibal as well. Introduced having raided a village and cooking a leg, even Tormund is disgusted by him and Styr considers raping Ygritte before he backs off when she threatens to shoot him. The slaughter of the Northern villages is abysmal and serves no purpose beyond pissing off the Night's Watch to lead them out of their castle. He boasts about killing a boy's parents and lets him go solely to send a message to Castle Black. And he attacks Castle Black more because he wants to eat crows than any belief that the Wildlings have to get south to save themselves. Presumably the boy he released earlier would die as well in the siege.

With his cannibalism, massacres and bloodlust I'd say he stands out in a way that puts him on the same level as the other candidates.


Another character I want to suggest is Vice Council Dupont from Equilibrium, the de facto dictator of Libria. The movie is set in a dystopia where emotion has been outlawed and controlled through drugs, with any "sense offenders" immediately executed. Dupont rarely gets his hands dirty himself, but he has direct control over the entire government apparatus.

I think what makes him stand out though is that it's eventually revealed that he's a Straw Hypocrite who feels emotions himself. It makes him way more culpable in keeping this regime afloat than anyone who is taking their drugs. The emotionless clerics don't quite seem to realize that field executions and incineration of whole groups of people en masse is actually wrong. Dupont has complete moral agency to understand his regime is oppressing millions and slaughtering thousands, but he only seems to care about his own power. His predecessor Father seemed to sincerely believe he was creating a utopia by eradicating all war, only to ultimately turn his society into something just as bad. Dupont has no such excuse.

Another difference with usual dystopian works is that they usually make more of a point about how the entire system is monstrous and the villains who embrace it are just another cog in the machine. For instance O'Brien from Nineteen Eighty-Four, who was in fact cut on that basis. Dupont is different from that in that he's the ultimate arbiter of the system, and willingly chooses to maintain it while hypocritically trying to eradicate everyone for possessing emotions which he himself secretly does as well.

edited 29th Jun '14 7:26:02 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#27172: Jun 29th 2014 at 6:32:54 AM

[up]Well, for Wildlings we have Craster, so is Styr as bad or worse?
Leaning [tup] for Du Pont. 2 things: Who's the Council if Du Pont's only the vice, and the character page has his Dragon Brandt; would Brandt count as well?

YamiVizzini Since: Jan, 2001
#27173: Jun 29th 2014 at 6:48:17 AM

[up]Most of the populace believes Father to still be alive and running things (ala Big Brother), so presumably the Consul title is still applied to him.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#27174: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:20:34 AM

[up][up] They're clearly in different classes of villainy. Craster is an incestuous Serial Rapist and Domestic Abuser of his daughters and kills his own sons. Styr eats and slaughters civilians for fun. Neither overlaps with the other's standout crimes.

On Brandt, not sure. He might count, as he oversees several massacres himself, gives up Preston simply to advance his own career and is also off his drugs. Maybe it's Taye Diggs' bland acting as Brandt, but Dupont comes off as more personally vile and calculating and is in a much higher position of authority to maintain his terror regime.

edited 29th Jun '14 7:28:08 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#27175: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:27:02 AM

RE Styr, I think he probably counts, although in a similar way to Shan Yuan of Mulan (who I know was eventually agreed to count), there's an issue in that he and his group could be easily replaced by Orcs without changing the work in the slightest- it's like both guys are the most characterized of their group, but the group is one of undifferentiated savages.

Like I can see why Shan Yuan was added to Generic Doomsday Villain and I think Styr could easily be added as well.

On the other hand, it is important that Styr is paired with and contrasted with Ygritte and Tormund, and because of that, Styr could be read as an evil person fighting for a grey side- which would allow him to be considered a Complete Monster.

On the other, other hand, for the sake of argument, I wonder if Styr could be compared to Karl under the "sadistically evil leader" category, in which case, although Styr commits crimes on a greater scale, given his greater power, he seems potentially less heinous than Karl since he doesn't abuse his own men and is not Stupid Evil (granted, it could be the difference between Styr being Lawful Evil and Karl being Chaotic Evil).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

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