During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
ACW: Probably more WOD keeps, yeah. I'm just not quite sure at what order I'm getting to things in
@MGD 107 Actually, fun fact, there are some myths that do depict specific Banshee that are genuinely evil and enjoy causing death, so they haunt their targets until they go insane or commit suicide...which is actually similar to this one, so I wonder if that inspired it. Though there they're generally depicted as outliers.
Edited by Godzillawolf on Jul 17th 2021 at 3:15:54 PM
Discussing these with you I'm also flipping to very firm 'no's on both. The former sounds like he's made into a complete joke to the point I can't separate his crimes enough that they still get the oopf factor; the latter just sounds like an annoyance for villainy and trying to tack on "The show takes it seriously" isn't going to undo the extremely minor effects his energy draining actually has. Snowy do you want to start bouncing these ideas off someone else who's seen the work before doing more from the remake? It seems there's some difficulty in taking things in alone and I'm thinking talking it over with another viewer might give a more level understanding of how these villains really stand out.
Goku Black
Okay ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Tim and morning star (It sounds like ponce de leon where he just "drains their energy")
RIP Toriyama
I'm also looking into Decibel as we speak, for any curious.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Btw, an EP from thunderbolt Fantasy's third Season will be coming soon. I will have some stuff to discuss on Fear Street and The Final Girls Support Group in about 13 days!
Nobody kept in Dynasty Warriors, btw.
Morningstar and Tim.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Nay on Tim and Michael, kinda weird for the latter, his energy absorbance thing was way More screwed up in the Original.
The First man
Switching to for Tim and Morningstar
Btw, there is a candidate I'm a touch conflicted on for Fear Street. Anyone who's seen it, gimme a ring?
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Probably because it's Lighter and Softer.
Tim & Moringstar
for that matter, I'll hold off on the Ben 10 stuff till everything gets sorted out.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Caleb rewrite, Dr. Hathaway, the first Vilgax image, Robert G. Durant, Sanford Lowell/Matthew Hopkins, and the Blight image. A more tentative one to Venom and the Banshee.
to Verone, Dagon, and Michael Morgningstar. Slight to the Scar quote (just barely doesn't hit the mark for me) and the Caleb quote (same reason as Scar). Cut Tim Buktu
@miraculous: Take care.
RIP Toriyama
Aight so unfortunately I gotta advocate for a 'No' on Decibel as well. His plots to endanger people are given some measure of weight—Never Say "Die" is still very much in effect and exactly how lethal his plots are is never once discussed—but I can give him some benefit of the doubt on that.
The issue with Decibel then is that he's not given much weight. His first episode he's somewhat serious, but he later goes on tooooooo...
- Comically pout over being beaten and mockingly whine to his minions asking about going on a tour.
- One of his plots revolves around forcing people to dance to get ransom out of them. He at one point demonstrates his power by making a dog dance and cracking a joke about it.
- Another of his defeats sees him blinded. He stumbles around, bumps into a car, proclaims "Aha! An escape vehicle! So long, suckers!", only for it to be shown to be a cop car.
He's not treated as some pure evil, be-all end-all antagonist. He's just another villain of the week whose plots aren't given much more weight than the rest of the Lighter and Softer show, and whose defeats and even plans are oftentimes laced with humor and silliness—see the time he's beaten by Grandpa Max using a DJ board to counteract his, then Decibel coming to view Max as a rival DJ for his "dope beats." ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
It would take a serious Knight of Cerebus to count in this show, and while Morningstar is one of the closest to that trope, he's held back by even his evil not being treated as all that horrible.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Switching to solid nos on Buktu and Morningstar.
EDIT: And Decibel.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 17th 2021 at 4:04:56 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Yeah, I figured that the reboot was too comedic to actually have any keeps.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
BTW, are Ben 10 video games and comics canon? If i decide to check them out should i judge them as separate things with their own heinous standard, or should i still judge them by heinous standards of the cartoons?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 17th 2021 at 11:12:07 AM
Goku Black
No, but considering their tie-ins to the show.
The characters would need to be quite something to advocate an ep.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Emperor of Evil!
I was checking the games actually
I'll post to drafts with the whole film tree later today—whether or not Rooker counts.
Thanks yet again to TBNY for his help and involvement:
- Darkman II: The Return of Durant: Dr. Alfred Hathaway is the maniacal scientist broken out of the asylum he's in and hired by Durant to build the highly powerful and intense laser weapon called "The Vigilante". Crazed and obsessed with science, Hathaway, having experimented on and caused destruction with radioactive and nuclear materials prior to this, harnesses that same power for the weapons, which one at a point blows up a building. Another time when used on a human target, it painfully warps him through electrocution before then obliterating him where he stands. Happy to be paid for both his part in a business deal and when the weapon is mass produced, but panicking when Darkman sabotages everything, Hathaway then murders the potential buyer while attempting to make off with his own work by himself.
@Scraggle In the film, Strack sent Durant after Westlake because he accidentally took the Memorandum to work with him and not because his lab was on the land of his building site. Was this different in both the comic and the novelization?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 17th 2021 at 1:21:49 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
TBH, I'm kinda skeptical of Aggregor at this point?
At this point we have some Dudes who try to Blow Up reality. In Vilgax case, several Realities, in addition to Non Keeps like the High Breed who have the 'Genocide everything' Shtick and other Villains have the energy absorber Niche, in arguably more screwed up ways(Dark Stars first episode wich involved him seducing pretty girls and draining them, turning them into Zombie slaves wich is shown to be both horrific and painful), and his Big Crime pushing up with the others was almost destroying a planet. Malware blows up his homeworld and from memory is a cruel sadist who pulls some Dick Moves. Even with trying to Absorb the Alien X baby, Kevin threatens to do the same thing after the power corrupts him.
I'm probably missing something as it has been awhile sense I saw the show's, just wanted to ask.
The First man
Gentle Laborer
"Another of his defeats sees him blinded. He stumbles around, bumps into a car, proclaims "Aha! An escape vehicle! So long, suckers!", only for it to be shown to be a cop car."
That's hilarious
to Buktu, Morningstar and Decibel.
Goku Black
Oh right yeah Decibel
RIP Toriyama
@Crow: Yeah, I will say I'm quite amused at some of the jokes in the show, as a Lighter and Softer series it gets some good gags in lmao might not be conducive for CMs much but that cop car gag gave me a good chuckle.
Aggregor I'm fine with for now, he's a very personally despicable type and while my memory of his episodes is horrible given how long it's been and Icould be convinced otherwise, as is I'd be inclined to Keep him from what I remember.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Oh, phew, for a second I was slightly worried the page might have to go.
Yeah, on second thought, no to both then.
Decibel still a keep?
Edited by ACW on Jul 17th 2021 at 3:15:36 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts