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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#270876: Jul 14th 2021 at 3:39:39 PM

[tup] to the fallen third, Novel!Sam "Smiley" Rogers, Queen Samara, Thrull, Louis Stack Jr., Thorton Meeks and the Khan Brothers.

Abstain on Verone.

Edited by MGD107 on Jul 14th 2021 at 3:39:54 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#270877: Jul 14th 2021 at 3:41:39 PM

I'm just gonna abstain on Verone.

Just saw The Forever Purge - PM me if you wanna talk about it

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 14th 2021 at 6:48:01 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#270878: Jul 14th 2021 at 3:42:04 PM

I think the entries from the book and/or comic would actually go under Literature rather than Film, wouldn't they? Strack would probably go above Smiley if the two were grouped together and if they were with Durant, he'd probably go first just because he's in two movies.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#270879: Jul 14th 2021 at 3:48:50 PM

Smiley goes to lit, Strack goes to both lit and comic.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#270880: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:25:26 PM

Been suggested these images of Riot from the Venom film.

  • 1

  • 2

  • 3

Not having high expectations though.

Fixed.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Jul 14th 2021 at 4:59:04 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#270881: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:28:44 PM

[up]Can't see any of them right now.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#270882: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:30:24 PM

Just remove everything after the file extension in the URL.

Like the second on the best.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 14th 2021 at 7:30:58 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#270883: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:31:13 PM

Well it seems that Verone didn't make the cut either. Wow first Arnold due to the movie not being conductive enough and now Verone for not being heinous enough, it looks like this isn't my week. On the bright side I watched two awesome action packed movies regardless of what critics had said about both of them.

Still anyone else what to weigh in on Verone?

Edited by G-Editor on Jul 14th 2021 at 7:32:03 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#270884: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:32:24 PM

I can see them and personally I like the second and third images the most the first is good but it looks very similar to the second.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#270885: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:38:05 PM

@G 2 Fast 2 Furious is a fun movie. I definitely give you that. I’d rather someone give the late John Singleton—the director of the movie—his first MB anyway rather than a second CM. I watched all six of the movies—excluding Better Luck Tomorrow—for the first time in early 2014 and seen each one in the theater as it came out since then—excluding the 15th Anniversary re-release of the very first film.

Makes sense why there's currently only two CMs compared to currently five MBs.

As for Riot images…still can't see them right now.

There's at least one other Darkman villain definitely worth talking about here. Maybe one other after that too.

I wonder if I should've put another [tup] in when voting for Strack since I was voting for two different versions at once. Oh well though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 14th 2021 at 4:48:13 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#270886: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:47:01 PM

No to Verone. I can't upvote him with the heinous standard that high.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270887: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:50:49 PM

If the standard is that stacked, I'll default to a sad no on Verone. Shame, because that rat stuff is basically the same stuff that happened in 1984.

I've got a sliiight expansion for Morakeb (Maciste) if everyone's alright with that.

Original:

  • Goliath and the Sins of Babylon (1963): The evil Morakeb is the true power behind Babylon's throne, organizing sacrifices where innocent women are taken to Babylon to be sacrificed regularly, thirty in each sacrifice. Morakeb has a grieving father fed to lions when the man attacks him; murders his own spy when the man asks for a reward; and shows a willingness to completely wipe out an opposing city and all who live there, even forcing the allies of hero Maciste into psychological torture to prove themselves to him. When Babylon finally falls, Morakeb even murders his own king before trying to escape.

Rewrite:

  • Goliath and the Sins of Babylon (1963): The evil Morakeb is the true power behind Babylon's throne, organizing sacrifices where innocent women are taken to Babylon to be sacrificed regularly, thirty in each sacrifice. Morakeb has a grieving father fed to lions when the man attacks him; murders his own spy when the man asks for a reward; and shows a willingness to completely wipe out an opposing city and all who live there. Morakeb forces Maciste into a sadistic torture trap involving spears dropping down from the ceiling inches away from him—one of which may prove fatal—and forces Maciste's allies to cut the ropes supporting the spears to psychologically torture them with the anticipation. When Babylon finally falls, Morakeb even murders his own king before trying to escape.

Edited by Scraggle on Jul 14th 2021 at 5:53:33 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#270888: Jul 14th 2021 at 4:56:45 PM

[up] I approve!

Gonna go with a slight 'No' to Verone, sounds bad but maybe not quite enough.

Ok! Here's an immensely fun one, also what I believe is my first from Theater!

What's the work?

We of course most of us know American Psycho and its more popular film iteration, taking us along a horrific, darkly comedic look into the life of Patrick Bateman, a vapid, egomaniacal stock broker in New York who secretly doubles as a mass murderer of innocents. As Bateman stumbles through the vain, amusingly capitalistic world around him, he competes with fellow businessmen over business cards, butchers prostitutes, and comes to question his own sanity.

Now, imagine if you took all of that...and made a musical out of it. Because that's exactly what happened in 2013, when a stage play of American Psycho made the rounds in London (where the titular Psycho was played by Matt Smith!) before coming to Broadway in 2016, and though the show was short-lived, the Broadway version was thankfully captured on video and can be found online, so heeeeeeere we go!

Who is Musical!Patrick Bateman? What has he done?

I do suspect I’m one of few,
I can show you something new!
All the constraints, they are all gone,
I will confess no interest in right and wrong!
I am reeling for a war,
What’s the difference? Who's keeping score?
There’s no reason to be fair,
Doesn’t matter when you’re not there!
Are you losing too much blood?
Let it flow! Let it flow!
Just keep breathing, if you can,
And you will see I’m not a common man!
I am needing so much more,
Every pleasure is a bore!
I am something other than a common man,
I’m not a common man!

The same maniacal narcissist tormented by his own blandness as usual, Patrick Bateman is our protagonist who sings of being "a version of the end of days" and notes that in a history of "gods and kings, I’m pretty sure I’m the same thing!" Bateman idles his days away in the monotony of his job and being seen as a "ghost" by his co-workers and social circle, secretly loathing and hating all of them and even himself for being so conformed and average.

And so, simply because of a growing bloodlust and his belief that "we are not all intertwined in a web, this world would be better off if some had never lived," Bateman began slaughtering people at random, cheerfully bragging of the heads in his freezer and the bodies in his closet, the dreams of vivisection he has every night and the goading of his victims to "Go back to my place, Have an after party, I can eat your face! Don't be nervous, invite your friends, The night is young, but it all depends!"

Though dating the airheaded Evelyn, Bateman regularly cheats on her and outright proclaims her to be nothing an annoyance, barely able to recall her name. Bateman casually expresses willingness to kill her, his own mother, his secretary Jean, anyone who crosses his path is instantly a possible victim of Bateman's, and he ends up brutally killing his associate Paul Owen to steal his accounts and because he showed an ignorance for Huey Lewis and the News, idly noting he only knows them from Back to the Future.

Torturing prostitutes during sex only to later kill them when they complain of the treatment, Bateman also stabs a homeless man to death, is shown to kill other victims with shotguns, chainsaws and biting their throats out, and takes a nail gun to one of his neighbors when she grows suspicious of his activity, torturing and killing her with it.

Even when Bateman attempts to restrain his killings by leaving New York as police investigate, the urge to murder his fiance Evelyn grows and grows and he decides to return to New York to resume his spree, proudly boasting:

I've got a pretty good plan,
To complement my perfect tan!
A prostitute, a friend,
A messy, satisfying end!
I’m ready to restart,
To excavate some bleeding heart!
I'm ready for release,
A little violence to bring me peace!
I’ll take a strong position,
I don't have any inhibitions!
If you want to watch, let me know,
I’ve got it caught on video!
The look of fear in your eyes when I attack!
I! Am! Back!
And you will know when you are stretched upon the rack!
I! Am! Back!

Bateman goes on another slaughter spree, racking up a shit ton of victims as he bathes in their blood and dances around the corpses, reveling in his bodycount and the carnage, but still feeling empty deep down. After biting off a chunk of his associate Luis' face and possibly killing him as well for making homoerotic advances on Bateman, Bateman intends to murder Jean his secretary, but ultimately is too shaken when she reveals she sees him as a genuine person and is in love with him. With the sight of Jean's relief at confessing to him as impetus, Bateman, in one final attempt to feel above it all, calls up Detective Donald Kimball and confesses his atrocities, proclaiming that he has moved past humanity and feels nothing for anyone around him, just a desire to now feel "clean" and seen for what he truly is.

... unfortunately for Bateman, Kimball takes the whole thing as a joke, reveals he apparently dined with a well-alive Paul Owen days ago, and Bateman is left with no one believing his murder spree and laughing off his growing mania. And so the musical ends with Bateman's wedding to Evelyn, Bateman coming to the realization that everything he did had zero effect on making him special and he's just as much of a non-existence as ever, doomed to this fate for the rest of his life that might as well be a fantasy.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Not particularly no, Bateman's mother seems like a normal (if materialistic) woman who remarks that her son was an angel growing up, all while Bateman stands behind her and mimics decapitating her and other desires to murder her where she sits. Bateman is treated and accepts himself as a literal void of humanity, one who looks human but feels nothing for anyone, even himself—he's never felt the desire to make someone happy, he's never cared for anyone, he brags that he is incapable of loving.

Even his treatment of Jean is ambiguous to say the least in his sparing her—he's hyped up to kill her, but upon her confessing her love for him and asking if he's ever felt the same, Bateman outright proclaims he's never once felt such things, and he angrily orders her to get out lest he hurt her. He takes inspiration from her confession and the relief she feels and confesses himself to Kimball, later informing Jean that he's recommended her for a Junior Executive training program at the company. If it were anyone other than Bateman doing this there'd be a chance of Pet the Dog, but Bateman outright proclaims he acts on his whims moments earlier, and Jean serves as the most appealing person to his narcissism in the story: she's the only person who sees him as "special", and that's what makes her "good" in his eyes and worth sparing, because she appeals to his ego and desire to be "seen."

Before this? He was all ready to kill her without a second thought. But once he realizes she's someone who idolizes him and he gains inspiration from her confession, that's when he decides against it and further offers her a better training position to continue her love towards him. As soon as Bateman realizes Kimball doesn't believe him and he's stuck in the monotony once more, he goes right back to proclaiming he is the only person in the world who is smart enough to see the meaninglessness of it all, and ends the play once more reasserting that he feels nothing for anyone around him or the world.

Heinousness?

He's Patrick Bateman. Psychopath extraordinaire, a mass murderer and torturer of innocents who kills people with knives, guns, axes, his bare hands, his teeth. By the end he brags of having "dozens and dozens" of people dead by his hand, and while the play, like film and novel, suggests that he may have imagined some of his slayings, it's still heavily indicated that most of his murders happened, and he's got plenty onscreen shit to pass.

Final Verdict?

That's a Keeper for the tonally-on-key version of one of my favorite villains in fiction

Edited by Ravok on Jul 14th 2021 at 7:24:57 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270889: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:00:44 PM

Yes to musical!Patrick, adding this to my watchlist.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#270891: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:02:45 PM

Yes to Musical!Bateman. Second for Matt Smith if you count plays alongside movies. Wait do we do that?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#270894: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:13:40 PM

An musical….. Based on American Psycho….. I never thought that something like THAT would EVER exist. That said, unsurprising [tup] to Musical!Patrick Bateman.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#270896: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:18:46 PM

Oh, and how about an image of Musical!Bateman? What do we think of this one:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/batemanbodies.jpg

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#270897: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:21:46 PM

Yes to Musical Bateman.

Leaning yes to the image, though the way Bateman is posed made me first think those are people worshipping him rather than those being people he killed. Probably just me though.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jul 14th 2021 at 8:23:37 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#270898: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:28:19 PM

[up] I imagine your thoughts were no accident - it seems deliberately set up to evoke that imagery. Nicely twisted pic there.

Yes to singy songy Bateman and the image.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#270899: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:29:18 PM

I, unfortunately, will have to say no to the image, it is good as a concept but it is way too small for us to use.

Though [tup] Musical!Bateman

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 14th 2021 at 5:29:45 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#270900: Jul 14th 2021 at 5:34:30 PM

Happy yes to Bateman - I was gonna get around to that, but I got sidetracked by my Hitler prep lol, just glad that someone got it!

And I love the idea of that image (personally, I think it’s obvious that it’s people he killed) but it could use a quality upgrade (unless it’s just my phone, but it looks grainy to me)


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