During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Nihilus could qualify as a tragic villain ? The way I see it he already was in my book.
Vitiate, you say he was born that way, does that mean he's Made of Evil ? Because, in any other argument, wouldn't count in my book, but I'll take your word on it because both Palpatine was under Made of Evil too.
edited 26th Jun '14 7:20:09 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Is there some rule (Rule of Cool?) that all Sith Lords must have Cool Names to Run Away From?
edited 26th Jun '14 7:37:01 AM by ACW
Many (though not all) iterations of the Sith Order expect their members to change their name, whether on their own devices or because they're given a new one by their Master, and these are generally Names to Run Away from Really Fast, yes. Some also expect their members to adopt the title "Darth", though there's some variation here (Darth Bane's Rule of Two Sith all used "Darth", Darth Krayt's One Sith reserved it for their elite, and Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness didn't use it at all, to just use some examples off the top of my head).
I recently had a Nightmare On Elm Street / Friday The13th marathon so I have officially seen every film in both franchises. So I'll try and do a writeup for the remake version of Freddy Krueger.
- A Nightmare on Elm Street (2010): Freddy Krueger is just as monstrous in the reboot. In life, he was a child molester working as a gardener at a preschool. In death, he returns to kill all those who attended the preschool. He punctures one of his victims through the heart, then taunts him on the fact that his brain will keep going seven minutes after his heart stops beating. He keeps Nancy alive solely so she can remember him molesting her, before he rapes and kills her.
edited 26th Jun '14 9:47:16 AM by TVRulezAgain
Yea to that Krueger and a yea to Eighinn.
as for Vitiate...his backstory is he was born 'Tenebrae,' the son of a simple Sith farmer and his wife. However, Tenebrae's father had suspicions, due to Tenebrae's force talent, that he had been cuckolded. It turned out he was right. During a big fight, Tenebrae's father tried to kill his mother, prompting Tenebrae to kill him. He proceeded to elicit the story of his true parentage from his mother: his true father was the ruler of their planet. Tenebrae then tortured his mother to death.
As a child, he created an army by mentally dominating all around him into an army. He eventually killed his real father and became ruler of his planet, committing multiple atrocities. The reigning Dark Lord of the Sith recognized his power and inducted him as one of the ruling Sith of the golden age empire, giving him the name 'Vitiate.'
When the big war between Sith and Republic began, Vitiate hung back until the Sith had lost. He called his fellow Sith Lords to one world...upon arrival, he crushed their minds and forced them co conduct a ritual where he sucked the life and force from every living thing there. As a result, Vitiate became the Immortal Emperor of the hidden True Sith empire, where he would reign for over a millennium.
"The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story."
If that's the case then Lyle Tiberius Rourke from Atlantis The Lost Empire shouldn't be on here. He's Evil All Along of course but only comes across as a typical villain to me because Atlantis is Darker and Edgier than most Disney films, he is essentially another Clayton. Looking at this line: "Many other villains wouldn't be aware of this, and most would leave it once they learned that." I HIGHLY doubt that your typical Card-Carrying Villain or Generic Doomsday Villain would care. Rourke is just unable to evoke the fear or hatred of the audience through most of the movie and not all of his actions are played seriously. If he belongs here then Clayton from Tarzan does as well as both of them are "situational villains."
What. Clayton tries to capture a bunch of gorillas. Rourke murders the King of Atlantis, kills his right-hand woman, and is willing to commit genocide for profit. The latter's not typical of a Disney villain at all, save for Frollo. There's no comparison here. I will say Rourke's entry isn't that great though. If no one minds, I'll spruce it up.
edited 26th Jun '14 11:15:30 AM by OccasionalExister
- Vincent Platt from season 3’s "Spider Man" and "Day of Reckoning" is introduced getting his kicks watching police divers fish out the body of a little girl who was kidnapped, raped and murdered, one of his victims, which disgusts Wayne. The police bring him in, but they can't get any evidence out of him so they cut him loose. He immediately kidnaps another girl, and when he's brought in he refuses to help, cries about his rights, then tries to bait Nick into attacking him by describing techniques on kidnapping little children and how sexually appealing they are. When that doesn't work, he tries to assault him. Nick then brings in the photo of Platt's victim, trying to appeal to some form of decency. Platt steals the photo, taunts Nick about the victim, declares he doesn't have a conscience, and brags that the police "will never find the little bitch.” Nick is so infuriated he tries to kill Platt, before becoming disgusted at what he might have done, but it gives Platt the idea to bash himself and make it look like Nick did it; this fatally backfires
- Ashley Barker from season 12’s "Childs Play” and her boyfriend Luke Knight find young adults to have sex with, by force if they are not willing, then brag about it and Ashley videotapes it and posts it on the Internet. When Luke had picked out a girl, he genuinely liked her. Ashley reacts by using a pair of scissors to stab the girl. She then got Luke to slash her throat but he couldn't, so after he stabbed the victim until he got tired Ashley kept stabbing her even though she was well past dead before she and Luke made Beth stab her as well. When caught, Ashley and Luke both mock the victim's mother.
Ashley doesn't seem nearly as bad as Vince.
So I moved Ashley to the work to be done folder. Now, some random items:
- Could someone please fix the folderization at Complete Monster Live Action TV? I put the B's with the others good to go, but something got screwed up.
- I'll work on the S's this weekend (I hope).
- Then, if nobody objects, on July 4th (that Friday? that weekend at least) I'll re-folderize the entries that are good to go (including the super-long ones if they're not condensed [FYI: Keamy's 353 words, Red John's 334, Moriarty's 395, Marlo's 363]) and then have Willbyr swap; the ones needing work can be worked on gradually, but no sense having the whole thing held up.
- Highlander: If all six entries count, we should probably create a new subpage; we could move the film ones there too.
- Is Super Sentai Monsters good?
edited 26th Jun '14 12:31:44 PM by ACW
Eh, if they're necessarily that long, so be it (I was able to tighten up Keamy's though); I'm just not a huge fan of Walls of Text. Speaking of him, that's actually a good response to myself re: Ashley. Keamy killed more people, but Cooper's a different kind of monster.
I'll keep fighting on Highlander though
And what the hell happened to the folders?
edited 26th Jun '14 2:35:00 PM by ACW
Yeah, I posted earlier about Epps. Even disregarding the Offscreen Villainy (if we see one, it can fit a pattern), he has a MAJOR Freudian Excuse and seems to care (?) for his mother. I'm fine with cutting.
Done. I also worked on Gravedigger's entry to remove spoilery pronouns.
edited 26th Jun '14 4:25:06 PM by ACW
ah, yes, we did have that discussion a while back. Cut Epps then.
Also, I need to say this flat out: It's not really relevant if you 'don't like' if entries are a bit over 'the limit.' There's no rule regarding entry size, and those entries were proposed and approved. Revisiting them is not helping the cleanup, it's just detour to the job at hand.
edited 26th Jun '14 5:05:42 PM by Lightysnake
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My bad; I readded them. BTW, TVRA, you were right about the folders.
That July 4th thing also applies to Super Sentai.
edited 26th Jun '14 5:59:57 PM by ACW
So, for Rourke, I had a rewrite in mind. Here's the original below:
- Commander Lyle Tiberius Rourke is a tomb-robbing mercenary — er, "adventure capitalist" who's Only in It for the Money. What cements him is his attitude toward his current assignment. He takes the Heart of Atlantis, which is precisely what keeps the Atlanteans alive. Without it, they'll all die. A lot of other villains wouldn't be aware of this, and most would leave it once they learned that. Rourke? Takes it KNOWING that the civilization will die, and just plain doesn't care. Later on, in order to ensure his escape, he throws his loyal Dragon off of his ascending zeppelin. What settles his evil here is that he jokes about it, and caps it off with a "Nothing personal!" What's rather frightening is that it ISN'T personal; he hadn't had any problems with Helga beforehand, and betrayed her simply because it slightly benefited him.
And here's my proposed rewrite:
- Atlantis The Lost Empire: Commander Lyle Tiberius Rourke initially seems like the affable leader of a band of adventurers searching for Atlantis. In reality he's a Faux Affably Evil mercenary who's Only in It for the Money. Intent on recovering a giant crystal known as the Heart of Atlantis for the riches it'll bring him, Rourke beats the elderly King of Atlantis, which eventually leads to the king's death from internal bleeding, and casually threatens to start shooting people unless he's given what he wants. When he discovers that the Heart is keeping the Atlantean civilization alive, and taking it will cause the extinction of their race, Rourke doesn't bat an eye and steals it anyway for the profit he'll make. Devoid of loyalty to anyone, Rourke has no problem with abandoning his former comrades to their deaths along with the rest of the Atlanteans when they stand up to him, and cheerfully murders his loyal, right-hand woman to make his getaway faster by throwing her off his zeppelin.
edited 26th Jun '14 7:16:41 PM by OccasionalExister

I also support cutting Nihilus. His worst act was his needless torture of Visas, so while he is a bastard, he's more... instinct-driven than Vitiate.
Like, yeah, Katarr and Telos were both attempts at extending his life at the cost of everyone else, but again, how much of a man is there left in that thing? What sanity, let alone humanity, is left in him? His only instinct is to feed, because that's the only thing left for him. When it's made clear he knows Telos has no Force-sensitive beings, and still wants to consume it anyway, that's less selfishness or indifference and more "I need something to survive."
His treatment of Visas is the only thing that really qualifies him as an asshole, because that's the only time he's ever shown out-and-out sadism (while deliberately keeping her alive so he may continue living as well), and even then, that's more Kick the Dog than it is worthy of a full Complete Monster entry.
Which is why Vitiate is worse in every possible way. Nihilus became that way through an, honestly, horrifying experience at Malachor, and it has eradicated much of what was once a man - he could qualify as a Tragic Villain in that sense. Vitiate, by contrast, was born that way. Thus, he's completely sane. His motivation is not to survive like Nihilus; it's so he may become the Force. When you make Nihilus more human by comparison, you're staying as a Complete Monster in my mind.
edited 26th Jun '14 6:56:34 AM by Serocco
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.