During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I would also like to say that in 24, Margo Al-Harazi? Doesn't count and never will. Her love for her son, at least, is genuine and she has a potential 'standards' moment, as evil as she is.
Also, with Star Wars...looking back on it, we may need to cut Darth Nihilus. There are genuine issues with heinousness, as other Sith like Lord Vitiate outdo him without the excuse of being slaves to their hunger.
Also, yes to Wraith King and Catherine, and to getting the Showa era Kamen Rider monsters.
Let me look back at Umbrella Academy. I've read them.
edited 24th Jun '14 7:29:48 PM by Lightysnake
So, seeing as Lightysnake just mentioned Star Wars again, I've got an odd one to discuss. As some (maybe all) of you probably know, each of the films has received a novelization. These novelizations have varied widely in terms of quality, and how faithful they are to the original scripts. Often they've deviated significantly from the movies in one way or another (especially the one for A New Hope which was based on an earlier draft of the script, and has Tarkin as The Big Bad, Vader as The Starscream, and The Emperor as the latest in a long line of weak men to sit on the imperial throne). In any case, the character I want to talk about is the version of Moff Tiaan Jerjerrod who appears in the novelization of Return of the Jedi.
Who is Jerjerrod? What has he done?
In the film, Jerjerrod is the commander of the second Death Star. He gets about five minutes screentime, in which he is ordered around by Vader, tries (in a cutscene) to get the Emperor to rescind the order to attack Endor, and then orders the Death Star to fire on Endor before being blown apart.
In the novel by James Kahn, Jerjerrod also receives limited screentime—about three scenes worth. However, the key difference is that those three scenes are all from his point of view, so we get to see inside of his head. And that's not a nice place to be. This version of Jerjerrod is a horribly arrogant ("great men never hurried" is his motto) Sociopathic Soldier who joined the army because he likes to hurt people. He's exceptionally full of himself, going on about how he is the commander of the greatest battle station ever built, and loves the idea of using Death Star II against actual targets.
In his first scene, Jerjerrod is ordered to speed construction by Vader. It's identical to the scene in the film; nothing to talk about there.
In the second scene he is in, Jerjerrod executes The Emperor's command to fire on the Death Star. It's here where we get our first real look at how he thinks: "It was with mixed feelings that he issued the command, because it meant the final destruction of the Rebel insurrectionists—which meant an end to the state of war, which Jerjerrod cherished above all things. But second to ongoing war itself Jerjerrod loved total annihilation; so while tempered with regret, this order was not entirely without thrill."
Jerjerrod's last scene, however, is the one that makes me consider him as a contender for this list. With Palpatine dead, Death Star II pretty much falls apart. Officers run around in various directions, men fail to follow orders, etc, because Palpatine is no longer using the Dark Side to control them and nudge them in the direction he wants them to go. Jerjerrod, however, is different. Furious about what's happened, he gives the order for the Death Star to fire on Endor, intending to kill the Rebels, the Ewoks, and anything else left alive on the planet, including the imperial troops deployed there. Here's the quote: "He couldn’t fathom what he’d done wrong. He’d been patient, he’d been loyal, he’d been clever, he’d been hard. He was the commander of the greatest battle station ever built. Or, at least, almost built. He hated this Rebel Alliance, now, with a child’s hate, untempered. He’d loved it once—it had been the small boy he could bully, the enraged baby animal he could torture. But the boy had grown up now; it knew how to fight back effectively. It had broken its bonds. Jerjerrod hated it now. Yet there seemed to be little he could do at this point. Except, of course, destroy Endor—he could do that. It was a small act, a token really—to incinerate something green and living, gratuitously, meanly, toward no end but that of wanton destruction. A small act, but deliciously satisfying."
Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?
I'd say yes. The novelization's canon is iffy, so it's hard to say what we have to take into account, beyond the first two films (which obviously have to have happened for the novel to have happened). Whether we need to consider the rest of the EU; I don't know. Then again, it doesn't really matter, because what Jerjerrod tried to do—destroying an entire world and all the beings that live on it, not for an actual military objective, but out of spite at having lost—is an act that's unique in canon. Tarkin killed Alderaan to try and make a point. The Emperor does what he does for power. Jerjerrod? Jerjerrod's a petty little man who is willing to annihilate a world because he's pissed his victims are fighting back.
It's also worth noting that Jerjerrod isn't a Sith Lord, or even a Grand Moff like Tarkin. Prior to taking command of Death Star II he would have had no real chances to commit mass murder (the novel doesn't talk about his background; in the EU he was the competent governor of an unremarkable set of star sectors; either way, not a lot of opportunity there). That his sole act once he's freed of Palpatine's influence and in command of the Death Star for himself is to try and kill a world, says a lot about the man.
Any redeeming qualities?
As in the cutscene in the film, Palpatine orders that if the shield generator is destroyed, Jerjerrod is to fire on Endor. As in that cutscene, somebody objects to this. However, the somebody in question is never actually identified as Jerjerrod (presumably it is, but it's never said so; it's just a voice on a radio). Perhaps more to the point, it doesn't matter if it is him, because following Palpatine's death, Jerjerrod tries to kill Endor and the troops deployed there, not because he is following Palpatine's orders, but because he's a sadist who can't stand being thwarted. No real redeeming qualities there.
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
None. In fact Jerjerrod is probably the most flat out evil Imperial we meet in the version of events depicted by the novel. According to it, Palpatine is able to influence every officer and soldier in his entire empire to do what he wants to. This would mean, in the novel's version of canon, even Tarkin was effected by this. Jerjerrod is the only officer for whom this isn't true, because when he gives the order to fire on Endor, Palpatine is dead, the army is freed of his influence, and Jerjerrod, who is mildly Force-attuned, knows it. He's a sadist, pure and simple.
Final thoughts?
Jerjerrod doesn't get a lot of screentime in the novel, but what he does get he uses effectively. He's only got one really big crime under his belt, but when the crime in question is trying to kill a world, an act that will wipe out a sentient species, and his own troops, I'm not sure how much more you need.
Thoughts?
@26975: I'd say that Marlo's entry is already a pretty concise summary of his worst deeds. I might be able to tighten the phrasing a little bit. (I'd also change the first line - while Marlo's easily the worst criminal in The Wire, there's a handful of others with no redeeming qualities.)
on Magus, because Marvel's other cosmic villains set an exceedingly high heinousness standard.
Just curious about something: is there a blanket rule against potholes to Complete Monster, even when the character in question has been approved?
I'm actually gonna vote yea to the Magus. People voting against him should take something into consideration...Thanos and Mephisto...the former is worse solely due to getting things like the Infinity Gauntlet and the Heart of the Universe that make him pretty much omnipotent. Mephisto is a firmly different figure and the comparison isn't apt. Mephisto is a torturer of souls, famous for cruel mind games more than outright genocide. They're entirely different monsters, and the Magus is only 'lesser' due to means.
When we look at cosmic villains such as Abraxas or Annihilus...the Magus is right up there with them, and is pretty on par with vileness with Annihilus.
Also, on Jerjerrod in the novel...here's the problem...he doesn't really do much. Endor's a mostly uninhabited backwater with little else but Ewoks and a bunch of native wildlife. Sure he's firing on his own men, but it's a moot point since if the Death Star's shield generator is down, the Imperial base is done for besides.
One could make the argument he's making due with what he has, and that's a fair one, but it dosn't seem it's quite bad enough in my eyes
edited 24th Jun '14 9:41:00 PM by Lightysnake
My counter to that would be that at least Tarkin was trying to prove a point. Jerjerrod tried to kill Endor because he was pissed and it was in range. Put him next to a more populous planet, and he'd try to kill it too. When we were discussing Durge both you and Exister noted that what makes Durge worse than Ventress et al. is that he does it for kicks, and that even if you took Dooku and the Separatists out of the picture he'd still be out there, killing people. I think that something similar actually applies to novel!Jerjerrod. He's a guy who joined the military because he likes hurting people. When the plan fails, he takes out his anger by hurting the single largest group he can get his hands on, in the most final way possible. If there were a larger group he could do it to, he would do it.
So Go Nagai is the last creator page to deal with. Cutey Honey can be moved back to the Anime & Manga page. Mazinger Z originally had its own page so it can go there.
Should the Devilman examples be moved back to the main page or should they have their own page? There's 5 of them.
The star wars franchise sure does have a lot of CM's. In fact, the only two franchises with more CM's are Marvel and DC. Quite strange considering the films (from what I know) were made for family audiences. But then again, if a show directed toward little girls can have one(G1 Tirek), it should not surprise me. Unfourtunately I have never seen the films or had any books or games of the franchise, so I can't be of much help with these examples.
jjjWhat did Redyue do in Gaim? And is Micchy still irredeemable?
Started harvesting the population of an entire city as Human Resources in order to acquire the political leverage to attain godhood. As for Mitsuzane, he seems to be going further and further off the deep end. This week's episode had him being chewed out by Minato, a former Psycho for Hire, since his behaviour disgusted even her, leading to the realisation that he does indeed have no home left thanks to all his betrayals. As a result of this, he decides that his best option is the path he's already chosen, becoming The Quisling for Redyue and destroying his former friends. Evil Laughter is involved.
What's precedent ever done for us?

Catherine and Wraith King are both clearly
.
If we're not to busy with particular characters, we should start adding some Showa CM villains into the Kamen Rider page while we wait for Gaim to finish. There are a lot of heartless bastards in the Showa series, so the ones we should focus on are those who are the most heinous and have zero redeeming qualities. Examples that come to mind are Colonel Zol, the Great Leader of Shocker, General Black, Doktor G, and the Kamen Rider X version of Apollo Geist. Thoughts?
BTW, I'm adding Redyue into the Gaim CM watchlist after the events of the latest episode.