During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Castrop and Owen
I also think Zankou fails standard. His more lighter features aside. Most of his deeds are just in service of beating them but he never really goes further then that and for a guy who's the second most powerful demon in existence I except more especially compared to Barbas or the source.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yes to Castrop. My next from Elementals—this guy wasn't quite the Big Bad, but he was one of its biggest villains, the baddie of the comic's first arc whose actions left repercussions that continued to be the primary instigator of conflict for the remainder of the comic's lifespan.
Introducing Lord Saker.
Who is Lord Saker? What has he done?
Lord Saker is a millennium-old evil sorcerer—heavily implied to be Lazarus of Bethany, the man Jesus resurrected—who took the power of the demonic Suileach Sidhe for his own through trickery. Saker is a man of limitless ambition and insatiable curiosity, and in his lifespan he's accrued a sizable Historical Rapsheet; he ransacked and massacred Aztec civilizations as a conquistador, instigated witch trials from Toulouse to Strasbourg to Salem as a witchfinder, and murdered countless people as a Nazi war criminal.
At some point, Saker met another immortal, Shapeshifter, and devoted himself to finding more of his kind—and since that means murdering people to see if they resurrect with superpowers in this universe, Saker has been routinely experimenting on and murdering innocent people to see if they resurrect. Among other instances we see:
- Saker strangled a woman named Janet Brown to death to see if she came back. She did...as a ghost. Saker stuck her still-conscious spirit in a bottle and tucked her into a dark corner to go mad in for sixty years.
Janet Brown: Why did you kill me? Why did I have to die...?Saker: Because I wished to satisfy my curiosity over a trivial matter. Nothing you need concern yourself with. Now, go away.- Saker killed a garage mechanic he murdered in 1959 and a kid caught in a road accident in 1975 to see if they'd come back
- Saker purchased an American P.O.W. in the midst of the Vietnam War from Viet Cong forces, giving the man his freedom...so Saker could kill him
- Saker's worst invention is the "Chrysalis Farm," a masterpiece of Body Horror where innocent people are captured and suspended in horrible states of constant living death—one guy feels like he's constantly being crushed to death, another feels like he's always disintegrating, two young kids are left as the fleshy growths of the farm grow through their eyes and bodies—and when Saker finally tires of them, they're left like Janet Brown to rot forever
In the present day, Saker's entire team of "Destroyers" is comprised of people he's killed and resurrected, and he continues his experiments on innocent people—when one of his doctors tries to protest against the inhuman experiments, Saker kills him on the spot. Even when Saker acts friendly to the heroes, it's usually before he subjects them to Mind Rape, at one point forcing one of them to experience a variety of horrible deaths in her head. Saker's ultimate goal is to unleash a terrible conglomeration of dark energy he calls the Shadowspear upon the entire planet, which will kill billions and allow Saker to reshape the few survivors in his own image.
Saker ultimately ends up tossed to the very demons he enslaved, and ends up tortured to death for—in his perspective—millennia, but being the charismatic bastard he is, Saker eventually convinces the demons to turn his personal Hell into what amounts to a Gilded Cage, before being brought back by his tenuous allies in the Society. Saker ends his active tenure in the comic vowing to leave Earth alone for the duration of a particular child's lifetime, after which he'll continue wreaking havoc and trying to take over the world...and he's not above plotting the others' noses either, as he takes an interest in one of the main heroes, Tommy, for the purpose of some "design" we never got to see because of cancellation.
Any mitigating factors?
So the only thing I wanna talk about—Saker's relationship with Tommy isn't quite like his contemptuous relationship with the other heroes. Even in the original arc, Saker admits he's attracted by Tommy's "power and intellect" (the two most valuable traits a person can have as far as he's concerned) and offers for Tommy to become his Dragon. Later on, after his defeat, Saker becomes a sort of Evil Mentor to Tommy in his dreams, and toward the end even helps the heroes a bit at the cost of a Deal with the Devil. Saker's surprisingly patient with Tommy; he has no problem subjecting Tommy to brutal Mind Rape or trying to kill him early on, but otherwise Saker is noticeably more affable to Tommy than anyone else.
That said, Saker also clearly has ulterior motives which we never quite got to. He's willing to play dirty even by the standards of the deal he made to "leave Earth alone" in favor of acting as The Corrupter to Tommy, encouraging him to sacrifice his humanity, which toward the end of the second volume seemed to be setting up Tommy's Start of Darkness and his path into becoming a dark reflection of Saker.
It's important to note that Saker by his own admission dead to all compassion and love. He admits with complete honesty that Living Forever Sucks and refers to his immortality as a "curse" and a "corruption," but also he freely acknowledges he's a monster, seems often to revel in it and the comic never tries to play his past or his curse for sympathy. Even at the comic's end when he's no longer playing the role of antagonist (actively, at least), Saker is still referred to as the Devil in the deal Tommy makes with him, a man devoid of anything but a terrifying lust for knowledge. By that point, Saker's racked up the highest rapsheet out of any villain in the comic period.
Conclusion?
Saker's a surprisingly complex example for an omincidal (or near-omnicidal, anyway) Evil Sorcerer, but TBH, I still think by the end Saker's an easy keeper. What say we?
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 5th 2021 at 3:04:35 AM
Lazarus, Owen Saker, and Castrop (so is this the first CM for the Cub… oh didn’t notice the p in their
)
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 5th 2021 at 10:36:11 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI really don't like my writeup for Donovan, so here's a rewrite.
Reggie Donovan, head of the Donovan Corporation, is responsible for nearly every death linked to the X-Creatures Project. Following in his father’s footsteps in the search for immortality, he used Shelley Thompson as a guinea pig, forcing her to transform herself into the bloodthirsty Heruka, resulting in the violent slaughter of the project scientists, then tying up any remaining loose ends by sending the Albino after the survivors. Donovan funded terrorist groups, causing many more innocents to die in his search, and forcing Meg Crimson to help acquire the creatures’ blood samples lure Steppenwolf out of hiding. After acquiring the samples, he orders Steppenwolf and Meg to be killed, then injects himself with the X-Creatures’ blood, becoming an intelligent beast and brutally killing his own guards before hunting down Steppenwolf.
- Steppenwolf: The X-Creatures Project: Reggie Donovan, head of the Donovan Corporation, is responsible for nearly every death linked to the X-Creatures Project. Following in his father's footsteps in the search for immortality, Reggie used Shelley Thompson as a guinea pig, forcing her to transform herself into the bloodthirsty Heruka, resulting in the violent slaughter of the project scientists, then tying up any remaining loose ends by sending the Albino after the survivors. Donovan funded terrorist groups, causing many more innocents to die in his search, and forced Meg Crimson to help acquire the creatures' blood samples to lure Steppenwolf out of hiding. After acquiring the samples, Reggie orders Steppenwolf and Meg to be killed, then injects himself with the X-Creatures' blood, becoming an intelligent beast and brutally killing his own guards before hunting down Steppenwolf.
Yes to Saker.
- "The Castrop Rebellion": Maximilian von Castrop is a hedonistic, self-aggrandizing High Noble whose father robbed the Imperial treasury. Purchasing the Artemis Necklace super weapon from Phezzan, Castrop uses it to massacre millions of men after disabling their ships in the arresting force and declares himself ruler of his own nation. Attempting to destroy the next fleet as well, Castrop responds to the Necklace's destruction by ordering a servant to burn himself to death so Castrop can fake his own passing and escape.

Alright, an update on Legend of Galactic Heroes stuff: there's going to be one more candidate from Ravok as well as the one Lighty's got coming after we shuffled things about a bit. In addition to that there's an early Villain of the Week, from the fifth episode, I think cracks it for what he is. Now then...
Who is Castrop? What has he done?
A fat, hedonistic wannabe-Roman aristocrat of old type, Maximilian von Castrop is the son of the Imperial noble who swindled funds from the Kaiser and was realized upon the former treasurer's death. Ordered to return his inheritance Castrop promptly refused, hiding out on his family's self-named planet in their... self-named... starzone! Refusing, he bought the powerful "Artemis Necklace" defence system/super-weapon from the merchant neutral governing body Phezzan to protect his treasure when an Admiral with a fleet of 3000 ships was sent for him. Having anticipated the attack, Castrop lures in the fleet to deflect their fire and wipe out the entire force.
With the size of Imperial battleships meaning he likely killed over 2 million, even as helpless vessels fled in a show of power, arrests the man sent to negotiate with him and later declares himself ruler of his own nation. Engaging Siegfried when his fleet of another 2000 ships is deployed to deal with Castrop, he becomes infuriated at the prospect his enemy is using a smaller fleet in conjunction with some from of trickery to disable his weapon. As Siegfried lays his trap Castrop flies into further rage and begins beating his subordinates and as he believes Sieg's fleet has come within firing range, attempts to wipe them out, though the broken Necklace shuts off after being neutralized. Fearing for his life, Castrop shuts off communications with Sieg offers leniency, believing it a trap and plans to abandon his planet he believes will be punished as rebels and flee, intending for a servant to burn himself to death to fake his own. Disgusted with him, his retainers and concubines—giving him an ironic scene to live out his want to be Caesar—all stab him to death.
Heinousness?
He's gunning for a bodycount of upwards of 3.5 million of what he intends to make helpless ants against his super weapon and tries to abandon his whole planet of people thinking they'll be tried. For a one episode villain, idiot pawn of Rubinsky and spoiled brat Noble, who's really a one-trick pony in terms of armament, I think he makes it.
Mitigating factors?
Unsurprisingly, he's a complete asshole snob of a man who looks down on everyone else like most High Nobles, he's just got the ego to try and start his own Empire.
Verdict?
I think he makes it in.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 5th 2021 at 3:09:18 PM