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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

KantonKage "The Complete Warrior Of Justice Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
"The Complete Warrior Of Justice
#26851: Jun 20th 2014 at 3:59:56 PM

Minerva of Fairy Tail, should be removed. Speaking of this series, we have Jackal, who's pretty much Zancrow's explosive twin.

His crossing of the Moral Event Horizon

  • Gleefully laughs as he forces Lucy to choose between an asshole with information or a totally innocent pregnant women
  • Also blowing up an ally because he found her annoying despite, helping him with his torture of Lucy.
From Coffin Princess Chaika, there's Ricardo Gavarani

His Moral Event Horizon

  • His hobby is abducted women so he can carve them because it's fun. Not to mention stuffing them in the walls in order for them to help supply his airship.

"'I will destroy all evil!'''
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#26852: Jun 20th 2014 at 4:05:53 PM

@ ACW: Agreed, I'll go cut Griffin from Designated Hero.

Re: Michael: The usual aim for write-ups is around 300 words, the previous was 378. I tried to shorten it a tad, but enough context is required for this one since he started off sympathetic only to become a Complete Monster through Character Development. I'd say detailing his arc is quite necessary to elucidate that, yes, he did gradually abandon all redeeming traits until he became a figure of pure evil.

  • Stargate Atlantis: Michael Kenmore is a former Wraith who was turned into a human by the Atlantis expedition through a retrovirus cure. After he discovers his true origins, he escapes back to the Wraith and kidnaps Teyla, the sole person who connected with him, to feed on her. He reveals the location of Atlantis to the Wraith but realizes that they will kill him for still being partly human, so he turns to Atlantis to defeat the hive. With the whole hive converted but the Wraith slowly regaining their memories, Michael takes charge of the insurrection and kills another Wraith who might have blown the lid on their plan. Michael escapes, becoming an Evilutionary Biologist who tries to create a perfect race that will be mindlessly obedient only to him and wipe out everything else. He first creates monstrous, Xenomorph-like soldiers by allowing Iratus Bugs to drain human test subjects to death. He later finds a suitable middle stage between humans and Wraith which he dubs Hybrids. He releases a virus on several inhabited worlds that kills most humans and makes the survivors poisonous to all Wraith who feed on them. He creates a clone of a recently deceased Atlantis team member, then tortures and experiments on him for months. He kidnaps Teyla's whole tribe to experiment on them and turn them into Hybrids, including her boyfriend Kanaan. He kidnaps a pregnant Teyla to harvest her baby's unique DNA for his Hybrid project and plans to kill her after delivery. Finally, he briefly takes over Atlantis itself, where he tries to kidnap Teyla and her baby again and blow up everyone else on the base out of spite. When the pair escape, he decides to leave them to their deaths as well before attempting to decapitate an unconscious Ronon to take his head as a trophy.

Re: Babar: I think the Hunter is about ready to be called now. Several arguments were made against him by different contributors that weren't countered, and the voting seems to favor cut.

Unsure: The Overlord, ACW, Lightysnake (3)

Yeah: Sanfranman (1)

Nay: Ambar Sonof Deshar, Morgenthaler, A New Man (3)

Marissa Wiegler from Hanna is still listed, but Ambar made a case a while back that she's a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Did we ever decide on her?

Here are some more YMMV/unresolved items.


Coraline

  • Complete Monster: The Other Mother invites children into her world by making them the brighter life they've always wanted. Then she sucks their life out and steals their souls, though not before she tricks them into letting them sew buttons on their eyes. She also cheerfully disfigures and tortures the beings she creates to capture children, just because they try to resist her.

She's also been brought up a few times, though never finished. I vote to keep.


Crownies

  • Complete Monster: Nicholas Quinn. He lured two office cleaning ladies to his country house, where he held them against their will, drugged and raped them over a period of several days, then forced them to keep quiet by threatening to have their work visas revoked should they ever leave the country, as well as keeping them from bringing their families with them. This is the Attorney General of Australia we're talking about.

Has anyone seen this Australian courtroom drama? This might be another case of Offscreen Villainy.


Diggstown

  • Complete Monster: John Gillon, all the way. He tried fixing the last fight of Charles Macom Diggs by betting against him while the whole town bet on him, and when Diggs wouldn't go along, doped his nasal spray, which essentially turned his brain into a vegetable. And that's not even mentioning what he does to Slim after Ham loses his fight with Roy.
—>John Gillon: (after Caine has made him bet his entire fortune) Sounds like you know quite a bit about me, Mr. Caine. —>Gabriel Caine: What I know about you, Mr. Gillon, would make Charles Macom Diggs himself stand up and walk.

This guy riggs boxing matches by poisoning one boxer and threatening to kill another boxer's brother if he doesn't win. He may be just barely heinous enough, but it looks like he has a redeeming trait in that he's willing to admit defeat to a better conman and just leave it at that.

  • Out-Gambitted: Gillon is defeated after a back-and-forth battle of gambits to rig the wager. Realizing that he'd been bested by a superior conman, Gillon admits, "You beat me fair and square!"


Drowtales

  • Complete Monster: Snadhya'rune. Her plan involves intentionally spreading faulty demon seeds amongst the populace (which turn the infected into hideous abominations while destroying their mind in the process) and poison all notable clan leaders who aren't on her side so she can rule over of the Underworld or rather what's left of it. She's also nauseatingly arrogant to the point of narcissism and is show to be a massive hypocrite on top of it. And what had been one of her possibly redeeming traits, mainly her relationship with Mel, was rapidly shown to be another manipulation with the seeming goal of cutting Mel off completely from her family and turning her into some sort of pet to parade around.
    • Snadhya's daughter, Kalki, also has little characterization beyond being a psychotic murderer with sadistic tendencies.
    • Sene'kha is also one of the few characters almost universally agreed to be one of these. Her plan to take over Chel puts her here, if nothing else, as did the fact that she turned the Vloz from a weird but harmless Ragtag Bunch of Misfits into a clan of backstabbers and schemers by setting up Kiel's mother for death and using Kharla, who had been getting better, for her own purposes and planning on turning her into even more of an Eldritch Abomination.

A bunch of examples were added back here after I believe it was decided to keep only Sene'kha. None have been added to Webcomics, either. Do any of the others count?

edited 20th Jun '14 4:21:05 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#26853: Jun 20th 2014 at 4:11:37 PM

I think Book!Other Mother was [tup]; don't think Film!OM was voted on.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26854: Jun 20th 2014 at 4:12:58 PM

@ Kanton Kage and Anime...

I really do appreciate you guys coming here and participating. However, there's a way we need to do things. Just giving up snippets or write ups doesn't help us oveall, we need to know these things:

What is the series about? What's it like? What are the other villains and how do they compare? How dark is the series, who ARE the villains? What do they want to achieve? any loved ones? Any excuse?

We need to know all about this to make a decision. Ricardo Gavaranai might be a keep (he sounds it), but that line of dialogue is nowhere near enough for me to know.

Giving a nay to the Hunter from Babar now. I think Marissa had an extra amount of nay votes, but if Sanfran wants to rewrite her, give it a shot.

I think we've kept the Other Mother.

Okay, Drowtales...Kalki is a no. She's mostly subordinate to her mother thus far, and she might care about both her moms Sene'kha is a keep, but Snadhya...okay, complications..

Snadhya is the worst villain bar none, but her redeeming quality has been her apparent affection for her lover Mel'arnach. However, recent chapters are showing Snadhya's 'love' for Mel is manipulative and pretty fake. She parades Mel like a pet she dresses up and abandoned Mel to her abusive mother to be abused and raped to produce children for 15 years. It's revealed in side materials that Snadhya was Mel's teacher' when they began their relationship, and Snadhya often took sexual advantage of her students in exchange for protection.

So, yes, I'm going to say Snadhya is well on the fucking road to qualifying if she keeps this up.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#26855: Jun 20th 2014 at 4:20:41 PM

Yeah like I said before, if the Hunter from Babar doesn't have enough characterization to be a CM, cut him as a CM, add him starting the forest fire as a MEH in the YMMV page and add him as a Knight Of Cerberus in the main page. I think that is the best way to deal with the character and there are not enough votes to keep him.

Also I vote to keep Other Mother.

edited 20th Jun '14 4:21:37 PM by TheOverlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#26856: Jun 20th 2014 at 4:32:24 PM

Anyone wanna do Film!OM if she counts (or, for that matter, an expansion of Book!OM)?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#26857: Jun 20th 2014 at 5:09:58 PM

So Lightysnake and I were talking in PM, and we think we may have hit upon a Star Wars example that we missed. For those who don't know, back when Episodes I, II, and III had just come out, author Jude Watson did three series of novels set just before or just after each of them—Jedi Apprentice, which followed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Jedi Quest which followed Obi-Wan and Anakin, and Last of the Jedi which followed the few survivors of the Emperor's Jedi purge. The books were aimed at an elementary school audience; the only villain to reoccur throughout all of them was Mad Scientist Jenna Zan Arbor.

Who is Jenna Zan Arbor? What has she done?

Jenna is a mad scientist with a yen for fame and money. Originally she would trigger planetary disasters and then "discover" the solution to them, but she found out this wasn't getting her the credit she thought she deserved. With that in mind, she turned to studying the Force, kidnapping those who could control it and performing experiments on them. That's where we meet her.

  • In Jedi Apprentice, Jenna has already kidnapped six other people by the time we meet her, and has killed them all, draining them of blood. One of these was Ren, the son of her supposed friend and benefactor Uta S'orn. These experiments haven't been that successful, so she has bounty hunter Ona Nobis capture Noor R'aya and Qui-Gon Jinn and keeps them captive, torturing them and letting them heal, then repeating the process. When the Jedi catch up with her she murders her assistant, Nil, and flees to the planet Belasco. There she releases a lethal bacteria into the water supply, one which will kill millions of people if she isn't paid to "discover" the antidote. She's captured, the Jedi cure the victims, and she's sent to jail.
  • She returns in Jedi Quest where she allies with Granta Omega, a Force blank (and son of Dark Jedi Xanatos) turned gangster, terrorist, and all around criminal. She captures Anakin Skywalker and a number of other innocent people to test one of her new drugs on, but has to run again when Obi-Wan catches up with her. She tried to set up a new facility to test and distribute more drugs, but was shut down again. She and Omega then tried to poison the entire Galactic Senate in revenge. Omega was killed, but Jenna got away.
  • She would join with the Separatists during the Clone Wars, and is the one who designed the gas that Durge and Ventress used on Naboo's moon. When the Confederacy collapsed, Jenna signed on with the Empire, and was part of the Death Star project. She also devised a chemical that could wipe a victim's memory completely; she was exposed to it, lost her own mind, and was executed by Vader.

Are her actions heinous by the standards of the story?

She's easily the worst person in any of Jude Watson's series, topping even Xanatos and Granta Omega. Within the Star Wars verse as a whole, she's no Palpatine or Tarkin, but what she tried on Belasco would, by itself, give her an attempted bodycount in the millions, something she readily admits to. That makes her worse than Durge, and as bad as some of the Sith Lords we have listed.

Any redeeming qualities?

Look up "bitch" in the dictionary and you'll find Jenna's picture. She used her only friend (and killed said friend's son), creates chaos so that she can be rewarded for fixing it, and doesn't even have For Science! as an excuse. She's out to get famous and make a profit, nothing less.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

None. Jenna's in it for money and fame, and while she's deranged, is fully aware that what she's doing is wrong.

Final conclusion?

Jenna is a villain from a series aimed at elementary school children, who wouldn't be out of place in any of the franchise's darker entries. I think that she qualifies.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#26858: Jun 20th 2014 at 6:19:16 PM

[up][tup] If she's from a part of the franchise targeted at small children.

jjj
TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#26859: Jun 20th 2014 at 6:21:05 PM

I will say [tup] to Jenna Zan.

Okay, I am going to do an effort post on Animated Dr. Von Reichter. Now this only the animated version, I can't do the comic book one, because the comics are in Spanish.

Who is Dr. Von Reichter? What has he done?

Dr. Von Reichter is an Mad Scientist and creator of Cyber Six, the hero of the series. He creates all sorts of creatures to serve him in his quest for wealth and power. For most of the Series he is a Non-Action Big Bad, sending his clone son Jose against Cyber Six, while he is content to stay in his lab. Jose seems to do typical villain stuff: he robs banks, counterfeits money, tries to become a major crime boss, uses various creatures against Cyber Six, kidnaps various innocent people to get at Cyber Six (including children and a teenager), mind controlling people to find Cyber Six for him, etc. Jose is not taking direct orders from Von Reichter in every episode, so some of these things might be Jose ideas rather then his father's. Jose seems to actively disobey his father at times, for example Dr. Von Reichter was angry that Jose misused one his creations and because of that the creature in question decided to try and conquer the city itself. However Von Reichter's objections were pragmatic rather then moral, he didn't want Jose to misuse his creation and use it before all the tests were done on it.

In the last episode (there are only 13) Dr. Von Reichter seems to have gotten fed up with his son's lack progress and decides to use a creature that is also a giant living bomb to destroy Meridiana city, so the rest of the world will take him seriously. This creature goes on a rampage before getting into position to explode, destroying ships and later buildings while getting into position. Jose betrays Von Reichter and sends the creature back to Von Reichter 's lab, where it explodes, likely killing Von Reichter and Cyber Six in the process. Cyber Six is able to pull off a Heroic Sacrifice, by forcing Von Reichter to move the creature as far away from the city as possible before it explodes.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

This is a bit tricky. He is a Non-Action Big Bad for most of the series, content to let Jose do his dirty work for him, while he conducts his research in his lab. However by the last episode he has committed a crime that easily overshadows anything Jose has done (Jose also has comedic moments that Von Reichter does not have). Jose seems like a more active villain, but Von Reichter seems more heinous. Jose even objects to destroying the city, saying he would rather rule it then have it destroyed, but Von Reichter overrules him, which is why Jose betrayed him.

Does he have any redeeming qualities or a valid Freudian Excuse? Any other mitigating factors?

Nope, Von Reichter is your usual power hungry Mad Scientist, he has no Freudian Excuse and no redeeming qualities. He treats his clone son Jose like dirt and his own creations seem to hate him if not properly conditioned. In the last episode he frees on the all creatures in his lab, in a last ditch attempt to kill Cyber Six, however they all seem more interested in killing him then her.

Final Verdict?

This is a bit tricky, Jose is more proactive villain then Von Reichter, but Von Reichter's plan to send a giant creature to go on a rampage and then blow up an entire city easily overshadows anything Jose ever did in the course of the series. It really depends whether we are going to hold Von Reichter's status as a Non-Action Big Bad for most of the series against him or not. I think he could count, all things considered.

edited 20th Jun '14 9:16:51 PM by TheOverlord

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#26860: Jun 20th 2014 at 7:57:20 PM

I'm not sure if Michael actually counts. Atlantis is infamous for its "heroes" being a bunch of selfish morons who do increasingly vile things throughout the story. Hell, from what I've read, the only reason that Michael's the way he is is because the heroes essentially abducted and tortured him, and everything he does is to get revenge on them for destroying his life.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#26862: Jun 20th 2014 at 9:13:40 PM

[up][up]That's a stretch bordering on an outright distortion. The writers were certainly excessively fond of the protagonists' problems being their own fault, but they're not remotely comparable to some of the Designated Heroes mentioned in this thread.

As for your point about Michael specifically, Morgenthaler's original post addressed that, though I don't remember the details.

Certainly I personally feel that while he did start out as somewhat sympathetic, it's hard to feel too much sympathy for someone who wants to go back to eating people (particularly since it's shown that Wraith do have moral agency and some of them might prefer an alternative means of survival).

Edit: Remembered the wrong person doing the original post.

edited 20th Jun '14 9:17:23 PM by nrjxll

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26864: Jun 20th 2014 at 10:58:23 PM

Think I might give a yea to Von Reichter.

And definite yea to Jenna Zan Arbor. And Mitch from Bad Moon.

Crownies and Diggstown...no clue, don't know 'em. PM who added 'em?

edited 20th Jun '14 11:06:06 PM by Lightysnake

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#26865: Jun 20th 2014 at 11:07:34 PM

A while back Megatron from Transformers: War for Cybertron was requested here and briefly discussed. He sounds pretty bad although I saw this on the character page:

  • Utopia Justifies the Means: Views his victory as the start of a grand new age. Anybody that doesn't follow him thinks otherwise.

Would this be a redeeming trait?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26866: Jun 20th 2014 at 11:16:52 PM

Strongly doubt it, given it's Megatron

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26867: Jun 20th 2014 at 11:20:38 PM

[up] There have definitely been versions of him that started off noble, though.

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#26868: Jun 21st 2014 at 3:31:00 AM

Jenna seems like a perfect candidate, so [tup].

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#26869: Jun 21st 2014 at 6:10:02 AM

[tup] For Jenna, I'm going to have to think out Megatron as I haven't seen this series yet, [tup] for Movie!Other Mother, and so far I've been getting [tup] for Mitch Toblat.

edited 21st Jun '14 6:10:54 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#26870: Jun 21st 2014 at 6:34:51 AM

Should we just copy Book!OM's entry for the film? Here's what was there for Film!OM:

  • The Other Mother. She masquerades herself as a benevolent mother figure, to lure in children dissatisfied with their lives. She then reveals herself as the horrifying La Belle Dame sans Merci, sewing buttons into the child's eyes and then gradually devouring their life force. She's already killed three children and was prepared to do the same to Coraline. She's arguably even worse in the movie than in the book, as she casually does away with servants who betray her, including the Other Wybie and the Other Father, and kidnaps Coraline's real mother and father. She has no redeeming qualities whatsoever and would most definitely hurt a child.

edited 21st Jun '14 6:49:19 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26871: Jun 21st 2014 at 9:58:28 AM

They're the same character in book and movie pretty much, why would this even be a discussion?

Anyways, researching, I'll say keep for Nicholas Quinn. He's apparently a Serial Rapist and utter scumbag, and the series seems in the same vein as Law and Ordderwhen all the drama is played onscreen.

Let's get Drago Bludvist up now, and here's a rewrite for Dr. Foster:

  • Skins: Dr. Foster, Effy's shrink in the second season, reveals himself to be a twisted Stalker with a Crush for his teenage patient. Knowing Effy's mental issues, Foster steadily makes them worse while isolating her from those around her to control her. When her lover Freddy stumbles upon Foster's seret, Foster ambushes him with a baseball bat and beats him to death before attempting to manipulate Effy further into his clutches. When Freddy's friend, the delinquent boy Cook, discovers the truth of Freddy's death, Foster attempts to murder him as well.

edited 21st Jun '14 9:59:57 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#26873: Jun 21st 2014 at 10:27:14 AM

I already did a Foster rewrite, but since yours is good I'll combine them.

edited 21st Jun '14 10:28:30 AM by randomtroper89

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#26875: Jun 21st 2014 at 10:59:21 AM

[tup] for Von Reicheter again. [tup] for Other Mother, too.

[down] for Kaguya and Ywach until the arcs are over. And am I the only one who finds it sort of offensive that after all the heinous male characters in Naruto (some being viable CM candidates) who got redeemed, it's a woman who's the Biggest Bad? At this point I'm almost fully expecting Orochimaru's redemption to be for real and for Hidan to get out of that hole a changed man. That will leave Kaguya as the only CM if she passes the criteria, or leave the series with none if she fails.

Re: The Lich - I think the issue with him is that whoever he used to be, that person is long dead. The Lich might have been forced to be evil, but how evil and what evil he commits were entirely his decisions. If he's redeemed, it'd only be because he'd be raised up to be someone totally different now that he's an infant.


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