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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#266376: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:00:10 AM

Change to abstain on The Walrus, thinking about it something ain't sitting right with me about him. On the other hand, [tup] to the Sailor Moon baddie.

[tdown] to the Dr. Miller expansion, the original's fine as it is. RK, can we please chill on the rewrites?

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jun 19th 2021 at 6:03:07 AM

PaynefulAlice Since: May, 2021
#266377: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:14:57 AM

Looks like The Walrus won out. However, before I get to him I'd like to propose a rewrite:

  • Alice: Madness Returns: Dr. Angus Bumby is Alice Liddell's shrink who uses hypnosis to erase Alice's traumatic memories of her family's death. Bumby's motivation is that he is the one who started the fire that burned down her house and killed said family, in an attempt to cover his tracks after raping Alice's sister Lizzie. Nowadays, he makes a profit on the side via pimping the children in his orphanage, who he's brainwashed and broken into Empty Shells. Bumby justifies his actions by acting like Lizzie was simply playing hard to get; claiming that he was providing a service to the community; and thinking that Alice would be better off as a prostitute. In his "Wonderland" persona, the Dollmaker, Bumby feeds the Insane Children-now turned into dolls-to the Infernal Train, with even the greatest villains of Wonderland terrified of him and his actions.
Another less plot focus one, here is my offer:
  • Alice: Madness Returns: Dr. Angus Bumby is introduced as Alice's well-meaning psychiatrist, but is revealed to be the architect of her madness. Years ago, Bumby stalked Alice's sister, Lizzie, culminating in him raping and murdering her, then set their home aflame to cover his tracks, killing Alice's parents and driving Alice herself mad from the trauma. Bumby then began psychologically destroying orphans to pimp them out to pedophiles, attempting to do the same to Alice while she's under his care by destroying Wonderland with the Infernal Train, which is powered by his Wonderland persona, The Dollmaker, feeding it insane children. When confronted by Alice, Bumby shows nothing but sadistic pride in his crimes, mocking her about how no one would believe a madwoman like herself.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266378: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:32:41 AM

Are we sure the Walrus is a keeper? There were a few no votes, and several abstains.

PaynefulAlice Since: May, 2021
#266379: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:40:56 AM

I counted up: [tup]: 9, [tdown]: 2, and Abstain: 4

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#266380: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:51:58 AM

ACW: Chaos is indeed Made of Evil. She's legit a blob with eyes that lives in a cauldron causing evil.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#266381: Jun 19th 2021 at 6:57:22 AM

[tup] to nehellenia and the spawn guy, [tdown] to the walrus

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
RK93 Since: Aug, 2020
#266382: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:49:29 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] While I do agree that I may be going overboard with the re-writes, I think that, unlike with the others, it's not so bad with Henry. The draft doesn't go further then "Serial Killer Manipulative Bastard" despite him being much, much worse, and even contains misinformation: Henry never tortured any soul into being obedient, didn't cause Dave's transformation into DaveTrap (he did make him have one springlock failure, although it wasn't related to DT and Dave quickly recovered), and didn't damn any souls: While anyone that dies in Freddy's goes to the Flipside, Henry takes no part in damning them down there and the worst he does is kill them. Also, he didn't make Jack insult DaveTrap in the Evil Route, just reveal that he killed Jack's sister and then make him kill Afton himself.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#266384: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:21:30 AM

So, a new EP, ladies and gentlemen (and all others):

What is the work?

The Scarlet Pimpernel (1982) is a 1982 TV movie adaptation of The Scarlet Pimpernel, the first novel in the series written by Baroness Orczy, starring Anthony Andrews, Jane Seymour, and Ian McKellen.

The film can be seen here.

It is the Reign of Terror in The French Revolution, where French aristocrats are being rounded up and executed en masse, down to the last man, woman, and child, by the government headed by Maximilien Robespierre. The aristocrats' only hope for survival is the Scarlet Pimpernel, a mysterious Englishman who leads a band of noblemen who smuggle these aristocrats out of France. The Scarlet Pimpernel's public identity is Sir Percival "Percy" Blankeney (Andrews), a wealthy, but vapid baronet. Percy becomes smitten with an actress named Marguerite St. Just (Seymour) after he rescues her brother Armand from an attack by thugs employed by a French aristocrat. Armand is an employee of the French government, as personal assistant to the head of the Committee of Public Safety.

Who is the candidate and what does he do?

Citizen Paul Chauvelin (Ian McKellen) is the head of Robespierre's Committee of National Security (the terms Public Safety and National Security are used interchangeably), and the man responsible for rounding up the aristocrats and ordering their executions (as admitted in his introductory scene sometime later). He is also a former suitor of Marguerite's, whom he still has some feelings for. The film opens with several members of the upper class (at least 10) being led out to his execution; after one of them is executed, another man, his wife, and young son are summoned for execution where the bailiff sneers at the idea that the little boy is innocent. This family is lucky; The Scarlet Pimpernel is on their side as his band smuggles the family out in coffins.

Chauvelin is introduced at a social event when he corrects Armand's girlfriend Louise when she talks about the number of people executed that day; she says 20, he says 23 to be precise, assuring another man there will be more every day. Chauvelin admits that half of his duties are rounding up and executing aristocrats while the other is making long-winded speeches, to Armand's chagrin. To humor his charge for once, Chauvelin instead makes a toast, one that another member of the party, a Baron de Batz, does not join in. The Baron de Batz is another member of the Pimpernel's band and a politically neutral agent who passes information between France and Austria, so Chauvelin cannot move against him (though he really wants to). Sir Percy shows up, and the two have a sparring match over men's fashions.

The next morning, Chauvelin is summoned to speak with Robespierre and his aide, Ponceau. Chauvelin is unconvinced that the Scarlet Pimpernel is any threat because he has only rescued a few, but Robespierre declares that so long as the Scarlet Pimpernel rescues aristocrats he is a threat to the revolution. Ponceau convinces Chauvelin to try harder by offering a seat on the Council should Chauvelin be successful.

When another aristocrat, the Duke de León, is smuggled out of France, Chauvelin decides to narrow the field by deducing that the Scarlet Pimpernel is an Englishman educated in France. He attempts to coerce the onetime British ambassador the Count de Tournay to act as his agent in Britain, but he refuses, so Chauvelin throws him in prison, bypassing Armand's word that no harm would come to the Count (this is part of Armand's Heel Realization). This persuades the Count to recant... while his family is kept hostage in Paris. However this becomes a moot point when the Scarlet Pimpernel rescues the Count's wife and daughter.

Now unable to control the Count de Tournay, Chauvelin is forced to pursue another course of action and find another spy. Remembering that the Marquis de St. Cyr's men were responsible for the attack on Armand, Chauvelin orders the arrest and summary execution of the Marquis de St. Cyr and his entire family... signing the arrest warrant with Marguerite's signature. This causes Percy, who has now married Marguerite, to grow distant from her (and partially so Chauvelin can worm his way back into Marguerite's affections). Armand joins the Scarlet Pimpernel's band as an inside man in the French government as Percy embarks on his grandest scheme yet: rescuing the young Dauphin after his parents were executed. This requires Armand to investigate the prison.

However, one of the messengers is killed by Chauvelin's agent who reveals Armand is a traitor to France. Chauvelin summons Marguerite and blackmails her with the proof that Armand is a member of the Scarlet Pimpernel's band; if she refuses, Armand dies. Marguerite has one evening to decide. However, Marguerite betrays Chauvelin by revealing to Percy that Chauvelin deceived her. Realizing that Marguerite double-crossed him, Chauvelin leaves for Paris as most of the Scarlet Pimpernel's band follows suit to rescue the Dauphin. Chauvelin captures Armand when he goes to meet with his girlfriend while the Dauphin is smuggled out of prison; refusing to leave Armand behind, Percy attempts to rescue him, but is captured. Marguerite, who has deduced her husband's identity, persuades Chauvelin to meet with her husband, who gets her to send a message to the Baron de Batz to get the Dauphin to Austria.

The next morning, Percy, who agreed to bring Chauvelin to the Dauphin's hideout, Marguerite, and Armand show up at the hideout only to "learn" that he's gone. Chauvelin orders Percy's execution, promising that Marguerite will be free. After Percy is executed by firing squad, Chauvelin orders his sergeant to bring Marguerite and Armand back to Paris for trial and execution; when Armand protests because of the promise he made, Chauvelin dismisses it because it was a promise made to a dead fool. However, Percy is alive and a Gambit Pile Up ensues: the soldiers sent to execute him were really his men in disguise, Chauvelin points out that his remaining soldiers are still at the causeway to kill anybody except Chauvelin and his soldiers, but Percy shows his yacht, the Daydream, is moored off-shore. Now completely out of options, Chauvelin duels with Percy, but Percy beats him handily. Armand stays behind to impersonate Chauvelin to move the soldiers, and everybody else escapes on the Daydream. End film.

Mitigating Circumstances?

None, really. The film leaves out his more redeeming traits like his daughter and instead shows a man who is callous and petty in equal measure, driven by ambition and a greedy love for Marguerite rather than loyalty to France. By the end his love for Marguerite is gone as he has no problem ordering her death out of spite for marrying Percy. Any Pet the Dog actions are driven by pragmatism, such as holding the Count de Tournay's family hostage in Paris.

Heinousness?

Here's one of those active villain vs. greater threat. Chauvelin is The Heavy who rounds up and orders deaths of aristocrats while Robespierre is his boss who orders Chauvelin to find and destroy the Scarlet Pimpernel. Indirectly, Chauvelin is responsible for the deaths of at least a dozen onscreen (what can be shown in the cart in the first scene, which is a practical death sentence), about three more during the rest of the film (two executions and Percy’s man) and hundreds offscreen.

Verdict?

Up to you guys.

Edited by k410ren on Aug 16th 2023 at 5:52:10 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266385: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:23:23 AM

[tup]Chauvelin

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
PaynefulAlice Since: May, 2021
#266388: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:37:49 AM

[tup] Nehellenia, Yagher Dien, and Citizen Paul Chauvelin

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#266389: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:38:29 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#266391: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:45:16 AM

Also, yeah to the Walrus and the Mysterio quote.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#266392: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:46:29 AM

What Mysterio quote?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#266393: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:50:22 AM

The one brought up a few pages ago for potential MCU page quotes?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266394: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:55:19 AM

Really not feeling the walrus here.

Happy yes to k4’s find though!

Edited by 43110 on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:55:37 AM

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#266395: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:55:40 AM

[up][up]

I’ve sought it here, I’ve sought it there,\\ I’ve sought it everywhere,
Is it in Heaven? Is it in Hell?
That damned, elusive, quote, please do tell.

Edited by k410ren on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:56:48 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#266396: Jun 19th 2021 at 9:00:02 AM

Oh, it’s back on page 10654.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266398: Jun 19th 2021 at 9:09:13 AM

Okay, mo more writeups please until I clear out the Drafts page...good lord this will be a big batch.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#266399: Jun 19th 2021 at 9:11:33 AM

Yes to Nehellenia, Dien, and Chauvelin.

@k410ren: He means this quote.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:13:40 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#266400: Jun 19th 2021 at 9:14:01 AM

[tup] Chauvelin, and happy birthday to LordYAM.


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