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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#266251: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:10:07 PM

[tup] to Darus.

[tup] to Nos.

Abstain on the Red King.



If I may ask a question about Zola's entry:

"Zola deliberately lets a Super-Soldier experiment go wrong and mutate his boss Johann Schmidt into the Red Skull so a rival will be blamed and his family killed."

Wait, Zola is responsible for Red Skull's disfigurement and the death of Erskine's family? Where does that come from? I'm pretty sure it was never mentioned during the first Captain America movie, and I couldn't find any information about it anywhere (not even in the MCU Wiki).

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#266252: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:11:52 PM

Took the words right outta my mouth.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266253: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:12:29 PM

Uh maybe I'm missing something but isn't Schimdt like that since that's how the formula works. It amplfifes how somone is on the inside and makes them look like that on the outside. Steve is a good person so wasn't changed but Schmidt was always an evil monster which is why he turned out like that.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 18th 2021 at 5:12:53 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#266254: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:20:10 PM

Wait yeah where is that coming from there is no evidence that is the case.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#266255: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:23:21 PM

When I first saw that I thought it was from the tie-in comics, but I don't remember it being in the EP.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#266256: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:25:57 PM

I think that was from a tie-in comic that went showed how Schmidt forced Erskine to make to supersoldier serum for him.

Honestly, I remember that comic going showing a lot more of Schmidt's crimes, from participating in the Night of the Long Knifes, to sending Erskine's family to a concentration camp and lying to him for years that they were still alive as he held him prisoner. I honestly wouldn't mind an expansion on Schmidt to include those crimes if I'm being honest.

Oh dear god, we're going to rewrite every single MCU entry at this rate, aren't we? tongue

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#266257: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:39:28 PM

Zola doesn't actually make the Serum "fail" and turn Schmidt into Skull, but yes, a tie-in comic does have him deliberately proclaim he knew Erskine would disappoint Schmidt with the Serum and sat back to let it happen without offering help so he could then swoop in and impress Schmidt after the failure with his own technological advances. He's downright cheerful that Schmidt has been disfigured and driven even more mad. He then smugly mocks Erskine that he and his family will be killed for the failure—worth noting that Erskine's family was already dead at this point, but Zola nonetheless needlessly torments him that it's "his" fault for "failing" Schmidt.

Edited by Ravok on Jun 18th 2021 at 5:43:21 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266258: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:41:47 PM

Well, I certainly didn't know this because the movie didn't tell me.

Schmidt I'll take pride in. Even if he had to be rewritten, like Sebastian Shaw, he was one of a number I did the entry for before there even was a cleanup thread.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 18th 2021 at 5:42:23 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#266259: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:43:22 PM

[up][up]So he wasn't the cause of it, but he knew it would fail and did nothing about it?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266260: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:48:42 PM

Quickly:

  • King Of Wolves: General Yang, second only to Genghis Khan himself in the Mongol Empire, is a brutish conqueror who happily leads his men on savage campaigns where he takes any woman who catches his fancy. Abducting time-displaced heroine Kyoko, Yang has an old woman killed for trying to stop him and only relents in raping Kyoko when she threatens suicide. Wantong to breal her, he shows her the arenas he's created where prisoners are forced to fight to the death for his amusement, revealing the mightiest of them is Kyoko's lost love Iba. Upon seeing their love for one another, Yang makes Iba "Kneel" by hurling knives into his legs and sends him to die in battle before plotting to make Kyoko his by forcing her to walk through the desert heat until she will do anything for a drop of water.
  • The Last War, by Mike Shackle: Darus Monsuta is one of Ergil's Chosen and the most vile servant of the brutal Emperor Raaku. Seeking to advance in the view of his liege, Darus leads the hunt for rogue mage Aasgod upon Ergil's conquest of Jia and the defeat of Jia's elites Shulka forces. An accomplished healer, Darus is fond of taking captives and torturing them before healing their wounds magically, only to torture them to the point of death to do it all over until he is given his answers. Upon receiving them, he tortures his victims to death anyways. Darus seemingly kills Aasgod and tortures the rebel leader Jax until he breaks by regrowing Jax's lost arm and cutting it off multiple times before even murdering his own sister in a fit of paranoid fury.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#266261: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:48:55 PM

Zola's exact quote:

Zola: (Laughing) "I knew you would fail. All I had to do is bide my time, and an opportunity for me to provide a TECHNOLOGICAL solution to the Ubermensch program would present itself."
Erskine: "You...are mistaken, Dr. Zola. My serum did not fail. It did exactly what it was designed to do. It enhances what is already within. It is Schmidt who failed at being HUMAN."
Zola: "Somehow, I doubt he'll see it that way. And once he recovers from this hideous disfigurement you have inflicted upon him, no doubt he will give the order for your execution. And his next call will be to the camp where your family is being held. How does it feel, Abraham? To have your hubris be responsible for the deaths of your wife and chilren?"
Erskin: "Zola—Arnim! Please, no!"

Edited by Ravok on Jun 18th 2021 at 5:49:25 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266262: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:50:53 PM

So apparently...

Zola in the films: Oh my god this guy is insane I need to get out of there

Zola in the comics: HAHAHA BURN THE WORLD, JOHANN

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266263: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:52:45 PM

Tie-ins are weird sometimes. [lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#266264: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:53:15 PM

Tie-in material never ceases to amaze and surprise me.

To be honest I would be okay with Skull getting a rewrite to include what he does in the comic. Sounds worth noting.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 18th 2021 at 7:55:53 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266265: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:55:07 PM

Apparently the comics try the interesting narrative device of just making him an entirely different character.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266266: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:56:07 PM

Anyway, this discussion about hydra and Armin Zola reminded me of something.

That Morbius in his hydra agent scientist portrayal in ultimate spiderman provbaiy keeps so, I'll check over the weekend and inform you guys.

[up]Funnigly enough him and schimdt sound closer to their 616 comic counterparts from that stuff then their film portrayals.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 18th 2021 at 5:58:13 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#266267: Jun 18th 2021 at 5:56:43 PM

Speaking of Schmidt in that comic, I think this image of Schmidt from it could be used on Image Links—or even as a replacement for the current image on the MCU CM page.

Edited by Ravok on Jun 18th 2021 at 6:03:27 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266268: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:00:58 PM

I like it. Only thing is if the writing will survive the upload.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#266269: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:01:29 PM

Oooh I like that image, [tup] to the Schmidt image.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#266270: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:02:32 PM

[up] I do prefer the image but that would mean having him as both the quote and the image. Though there is this quote of Ego I quite like so we could replace the current one with that and the current image with this suggested one.

"I tried so hard to find the form that best suited you, and this is the thanks I get? You really need to GROW UP! I wanted to do this together, but I suppose you'll have to learn by spending the next thousand years as a BATTERY!"
Ego, to his son Peter Quill (after telling Peter how he killed the latter's mother), Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#266271: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:03:36 PM

It's also worth noting that, in that comic? Zola does still show signs of being scared of Schmidt...when Schmidt is in the room. When he's alone for the first time with Erskine? That's when the mask drops and he reveals a coldly smug, cruel personality. So I can't even say it's outright out of line with the films: he still puts up a look fear and nervousness around Schmidt, but the second he's given time to himself with a victim, he shows a nasty side. It honestly is what furthers my feelings that, for the canon we get, Zola was merely terrified of Schmidt doing something to him—not what Schmidt was doing to the rest of the world, which Zola went along with just fine.

Edited by Ravok on Jun 18th 2021 at 6:04:28 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#266272: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:06:38 PM

@Lightysnake

Let's be honest, The Winter Soldier also did that. Zola was clearly portrayed as a reluctant Punch-Clock Villain in the first film, but he's retconned into being a vicious maniac in the second.

This is one of the main reasons why I voted against him. That said, when I think about it, it's not the first time this has happened. For instance, in the DCAMU, Talia al Ghul was unambiguously portrayed as a sympathetic character who cared about Batman and their son during her first film... only to be retconned into a pure evil psycho in her second appearance. Hence why she was approved.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#266273: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:08:41 PM

By the way this discussion on Nos made me think of him so more and I found a possible image of him for the Image Links page.

here

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266274: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:08:57 PM

Only problem I have is that I doubt that image words will be legible in an upload. But I have no idea so wI would like to see how to looks first before we replace the main image.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 18th 2021 at 6:09:41 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#266275: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:09:51 PM

I am currently trying to upload it to see how it looks.


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