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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#266126: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:26:35 AM

@Powermaster 201: The two albums together are only twenty songs long and she's only there in person for about five of them, but the Immortal's quest to escape her takes up the entire story (barring an extended Now What? ending in the last two songs).

Edited by StarSword on Jun 18th 2021 at 12:27:28 PM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#266127: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:30:54 AM

@RK 93: Haman is intended to be monstrous: he's a bigoted narcissistic asshole who tries to orchestrate a genocide for no other reason than because he hates Jews.

Torah/Old Testament God is intended to be benevolent but doesn't come across as such anymore because of Values Dissonance. (FWIW, I'm a Christian.)

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#266128: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:31:20 AM

[up][up][up] Please don't. There were already several debates about that character's validity, would rather leave that one alone.

Edited by AustinDR on Jun 18th 2021 at 9:31:42 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266129: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:33:30 AM

He was also listed after a massive debate on these exact points. I get where you're coming from but the thread debated this issue and determined he keeps.

Connor2107 Since: Jun, 2017
#266130: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:33:57 AM

Thoughts on this quote?

"With Meridian, we can transform every world in this cluster to a wasteland. Either the subjects submit to exaltation, or we will use it to annihilate them."
The Archon, Mass Effect: Andromeda

Edited by Connor2107 on Jun 19th 2021 at 1:37:46 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#266131: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:35:08 AM

This is the second time in my tenure this has come up, and it has been discussed many times before. Never Again list? I hate to say it, but...

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 18th 2021 at 12:36:18 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266132: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:37:55 AM

Just going to take a wild stab in the dark. Is this because of the villain's wiki removal ?

Edited by miraculous on Jun 18th 2021 at 9:40:51 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#266133: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:42:38 AM

[up] Slight correct: He wasn't really removed but more just rejected, but yeah same deal either way.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Jun 18th 2021 at 12:43:54 PM

RK93 Since: Aug, 2020
#266134: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:45:32 AM

[up][up] While I did see the removal on the Villains Wiki, it was a long time ago. I asked this question because frankly I was curious because of the whole standards thing.

Speaking of Haman being discussed already, can someone link me the discussion?

Edited by RK93 on Jun 18th 2021 at 6:45:50 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#266135: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:49:16 AM

We are not VW. Don't see why bring it up here.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#266137: Jun 18th 2021 at 9:58:13 AM

I could have sworn someone tried to get Haman cut within the past two years. I distinctly remember someone contesting Haman at some point between 2019-2020, just don't remember who...

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266138: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:01:29 AM

Suffice to say...Haman has been thoroughly discussed and we've ruled a keeper.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#266139: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:03:31 AM

Yes to Lowe, Claudius, Yang, and Mewtwo.

Abstain on the Matriarch.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#266140: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:06:03 AM

@Star Sword I was more referring to her deeds, she sounds bad but personally, I'm not sure if she's bad enough, she forces the main character to kill her sons and tries to kill the main character and that's about it, which I'm not sure if that's bad enough on itself even if its her own sons.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Jun 18th 2021 at 1:06:28 PM

Paireon I wear no mask. from Wherever you go there you are Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I wear no mask.
#266141: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:11:58 AM

[tup] Mewtwo. The number of fanmade stuff that's enormously Darker and Edgier than the relatively lighthearted source material will never not be funny to me.

Neutral on the Matriarch - I'd really like more info, if available; bit barebones right now, it is.

Yeah, keep Haman, no real need to discuss it IMO, especially since he was discussed many times before (I think I maybe took part in one, once?)

Also, LOL Villains Wiki. Last I checked their "Pure Evil" section was in dire need of curation. It's a useful ressource at times, but they really need to tighten their standards - soooo many entries' poor writing (spelling, grammar, and ESPECIALLY syntax) make my eyes bleed...

Edited by Paireon on Jun 18th 2021 at 1:15:50 PM

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266142: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:17:23 AM

Yeah, I think it was a little before my time, but I've heard Haman was a contentious debate.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#266143: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:21:06 AM

[tup]Mewtwo

Keep Haman.

IPP Wick Check created.
ClownPrince47 Since: Sep, 2016
#266144: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:21:35 AM

Personally, I don't see any real reason to cut him. And if this has been debated as much as you guys are saying and he still was kept, I don't know if it's worth trying it again since it seems to be going the same way.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#266145: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:21:44 AM

I say again. Never Again List?

PaynefulAlice Since: May, 2021
#266146: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:23:27 AM

I asked this a bit ago and was wondering if someone could give a more concrete answer. Are Wonderland's residents considered real enough? At the end of Madness Returns (and in undoubtedly confirmed in Otherlands) that Wonderland is part of Otherland, a plane of existence where imagination and reality blend together. Alice can move freely between these planes, which begin with her "Wonderland", and now she can enter the Wonderlands of others.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#266147: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:27:30 AM

[tup] to Mew2King-er Mewtwo

@Paireon: That's what a dub making Mewtwo a megalomaniac villain instead of the tragic misunderstood anti-villain he originally was does. Also look at MLP for funnier stuff.

Edited by VengefulBale on Jun 18th 2021 at 12:27:37 PM

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#266148: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:27:46 AM

Not sure on the Wonderland stuff just cause that's mirkier than I myself tend to get right, but personally I'd think yes in that scenario

And if he's been discussed a lot before, still keeps, and comes up enough, how about this?

Definitely a CM

  • The Bible: Haman the Agagite (Haman manages to surpass the high heinous standard, especially since God's actions are treated as benevolent)

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#266149: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:27:56 AM

[up][up][up]Not sure. The most evil characters in Wonderland there are (in some way) manifestations of people, Alice knows and met in the real world, while other villains showed redeeming qualities either way. Even the Red Queen showed herself as way less evil than Dollmaker, who is basically Wonderland version of Dr. Bumby.

Keep Haman

So, instead to prevent it from being buried again, since the quote was picked, i'm gonna repost another part of my previous post:

For XIII Monster page, how about any of these images from the comics:

Calvin Wax killing his partners in XIII Mystery spin-off comic:

1)

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco056_1603376230.jpg

2)

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco057_1603376230.jpg

3)

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco058_1603376230.jpg

4)

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco058_1603376230d.jpg

Colonel Juan Peralta killing an innocent man to present him as a terrorist, who he sold to US:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco057_1611160311.jpg

That's the best i could find, since villains mostly love to do evil deeds through their henchmen or their actions are obscured by some object or person.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jun 18th 2021 at 8:31:21 PM

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#266150: Jun 18th 2021 at 10:30:55 AM

[tup] Mewtwo (What the hell, guys - Mewtwo was a victim of his own creations' circumstances! Leave him alone and stop making a CM out of him! tongue)

And yes, Haman still keeps.


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