During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
And there are some people Cruella genuinely cares about.
Also, dalmations killed her mom, which is why she's so evil.
@ACW - Can confirm the Count loves his daughter. When, just as he's about to be killed by Guts, the Godhand (all five) are summoned, they offer him a power boost so he can survive and kill Guts if he sacrifices her, but he finds himself incapable of doing it, which spells his demise. It's a genuine Alas, Poor Villain too (even if said demise involves being Dragged Off to Hell by the vengeful spirits of his myriad victims). Reiterating
Baron and support for putting him on the NA list.
And yes, the number of Griffith stans is as mindboggling as it is disgusting; fully agree with Lighty's sentiments on the matter.
Iffy on Arthur (can't watch the clips in Canada because copyrights) so abstain for now even though he's the type of villain I loathe most.
Mairon. Actually, literally damning the people you kill? Oof.
Keep John Dee/Doctor Destiny; I don't even know why he'd possibly need to come up for reevaluation. On the plus side IIRC 24-hour Diner will be adapted for the first season of the Netflix show so hopefully peeps will likely question it less after they see... THAT (if it's a faithful adaptation).
@ACW - Yup, Berserk is just that fucked up. And I love it for it. Again, RIP Miura Kentaro, hope you're playing Idolmaster to your heart's content now.
@sgamer82 - That's what I understood from Zombie's EP, agency appears to be fully in the clear which is why I voted
.
Suzumi Kuzu for now. I was today old when I learned about this series.
Never saw the Darkman sequels, are they any good? Or at least So Bad, It's Good?
Tentative
to Lowe. I'm guessing the Marina/cruise ship thing could have potentially led to thousands of deaths?
Claudius. I was today old when I learned about that series too. This
was the 90s Tarzan series I was familiar with.
Yang. Have to read it one of these days if I can find it.
Lighty, this manga? Also, anyone count from the sequel (if you can find it)? Yes to him.
Yes to Iowe (trying to destroy the marina is what does it) and Claudius as well.
BTW, for the Berserk page, a proposed new header:
Berserk takes place in a Crapsack World, and Guts, Casca, and their allies have faced all manner of villains. Even so, a select few manage to stand out.
Edited by ACW on Jun 18th 2021 at 7:31:03 AM
I wanted to ask this before I even try to recommend, but is Wonderland and its inhabitants in American McGee's Alice and Alice: Madness Returns considered real enough for any of them to qualify?
Since there are sandboxes for CM And MB Team Ups and MB Team Ups, am I allowed to make one for CM Team Ups?
Yeah, I really screwed up with my last proposal so this time I was really careful this time we will be covering another Fan Work this time for Pokémon.
What is the Work
Pokémon Nightmare: Invasion is a german Pokémon Fan Game released in 2013. It is set in our world where suddenly an entire city called Azure City mysteriously vanishes and every police officer sent to investigate the disappearances suddenly vanished. So our protagonist Jack goes to the place to investigate what happened and slowly unravels what happened.
Who is Mewtwo and What Has He Done?
Mewtwo as a result of the experiments that lead to the disappearance of Azure City by the Alazkazams was brought into existence. Mewtwo would end up going rogue and fleeing to the Super Market where he would end up transforming the people left there into puppets who would eventually all be killed by Jack.
Mewtwo returned to the Gene Co building and killed the remaining four Alazkazams that created him as well as mutated a few humans that were leftover. Jack would confront him and Mewtwo would admit to killing his creators because they wouldn't submit to him as well as showing no care over the many people he mutated and were killed due to him. Jack and Mewtwo end up fighting and Mewtwo is defeated for reasons that I won't explain because it's not relevant and extremely complex.
Mewtwo would end up taken by Gavin who would be upgraded and completed into Mewthree, he upgraded him by having Mewtwo infused with all the knowledge and memories of the people of Azure City. Once the process is done on Mewthree he kills Gavin and the three scientists who helped Gavin. Mewthree is now a massive super powerful giant and begins his explicitly stated plan to destroy the world and recreate it in his own image.
Jack however is able to take down Mewthree and kill him putting a stop to Mewtwo/Mewthree's nightmare and the horrors of the city once and for all.
Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Now, this is probably the big first question you have Moral Agency. Now Mewtwo was created by the Alakazam but there are several things that make this not disqualifying. First of all, we don't know the reason that Mewtwo was created for meaning that we don't have any indication that he was created for the purpose of evil. Secondly, Mewtwo went rouge on his creators and did everything on his own. Thirdly it is shown that the Pokemon in this universe or at the very least the ones created/mutated have shown the capacity for good as we see a few good Alakazam that come to regret the creation of Mewtwo and ultimately help the hero stop him. Fourthly after being upgraded by Gavin he is given all the knowledge of the people of Azure City and is now basically the smartest person in the universe meaning if he didn't have Moral Agency before he does now.
Now Mewtwo does claim to be doing this for good intentions but Jack himself explicitly calls out Mewtwo for the fact that he is nothing more than a monster. And in the end, Mewtwo only wants to rule the world as a god and have everyone worship him so, in the end, his intentions are completely moot.
One last thing I will say the game is much darker than the Pokemon franchise normally is with instances of blood and swearing for example. However, this is actually more of a There Will Be Brawl situation rather than anything else it is not set in the Pokemon world but our world with all of the monsters created looking like Pokemon. So basically the setting is a complete overhaul of what the Pokemon universe is like.
Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?
Mewtwo meets the general standard quite easily I mean being an Omnicidal Maniac and having a kill count in the dozens at least will do that but there is one thing I need to address. Before the final boss fight, a mysterious man who calls himself Lou reveals himself he says he was the one behind everything which he implies includes Mewtwo's creations as well as the murder of Jack's parents. The problem is how much this guy affected is not really explored deeply beyond his word and he only alludes to it we still have no idea why Mewtwo was created and there is no indication he has any control over his actions, Lou also doesn't become an Omnicidal Maniac and is defeated before Mewtwo turns into one.
Also, I will point out while Mewtwo ultimately isn't the one responsible for Azure City's disappearance, that was the Alakazam that were created due to Gene Co's experiments which the Alakazam would continue and end up creating Mewtwo. he still has the worst crimes he killed all his creators simply for not bowing to him mutated multiple more people into mindless slaves and straight-up didn't care that they died and tried to destroy the world and recreate it in his own image after gaining ultimate knowledge.
Final Verdict?
Pretty solid yes.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 18th 2021 at 1:44:15 AM
Mewtwo
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@Purple Eyed Guma, but couldn't the same thing be true of the kill-count page?
Edited by ClownPrince47 on Jun 18th 2021 at 12:02:00 PM
What is the Work
Unleash the Archers, albums Apex and Abyss.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
The Matriarch is The Dreaded Big Bad of the two Concept Albums' Heavy Mithril setting. In Apex she is described in "The Matriarch" as a tyrannical Sorcerous Overlord who "rules with the iron fist" and "brings nightmares to life". She enslaves the Immortal and commands him to slay her three (four?) sons for her as part of a ritual to achieve immortality herself, having originally birthed them for this sole purpose. Once done, the Matriarch goes back on her word to free the Immortal, and in Abyss she pursues him relentlessly after he escapes into outer space.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
The Matriarch's first two sons of three (EDIT: strike that, it's just the second son, who is a Sorcerous Overlord like his mom) kinda have it coming, but it's presented as Kick The Son Of A Bitch: the Matriarch wants them slain as part of her bid for immortality, not because of what they've done.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
She is by far the worst person in the (somewhat sparse) setting: a couple of the sons are bad guys, and the Immortal does some evil acts under duress from the Matriarch but also eventually destroys her in "The Wind that Shapes the Land".
Final Verdict?
Yes, I think she counts.
Edited by StarSword on Jun 18th 2021 at 4:04:06 AM
Trust me, I'm an engineer!I really don't want to start a debate here, but I'm not really sure Haman counts. That's because he might not be heinous enough due to the Bible's extremely high standards. Now, genocide is pretty damn evil, but Haman only tried to commit it. He's also far from the only one. Many characters tried and sometimes even succeeded in genocide, including the Big Man Upstairs. If you find a reason to keep him, I won't mind, because frankly the idea of the Bible having a CM is so funny for me for some dumb reason.
