During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
An Eldritch Troper
Yes to Mairon, Robespierre and the Godhand and there is some candidate I think we swept under the rug:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=10632#comment-265781
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=10634#comment-265845
These posts concern a candidate called Zombie who was approved but there were concerns regarding agency issues that were left unaddressed. I do not know what to say about them but I hope that someone can discuss an issue that got carried away due to the Godhand discussion.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Y Es to Maron no to Arthur
I relistenened to the episode that explains what happened to Professor Zombie and will get a post for it and links to a couple other posts made when I get home from work.
Short version is what nothing in series suggests to me that Zombie was acting of anything other than her own will, and her final act is to deliberately destroy the thing that might have saved her life, knowing exactly what it was, and then taunt the hero into killing her.
It's hard to get more agency than dying on your own terms.
Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 17th 2021 at 4:15:08 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
so it’s kinda like Acnologia becoming a dragon, no agency’s lost, but he becomes worse.
Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 17th 2021 at 4:25:56 AM
Showtime!
Suzumi's entry on the YMMV.Lenen page currently looks like this
- Complete Monster: Suzumi Kuzu is the the Big Bad and is feared by everyone. Their modus operandi is to make Tsubakura cross the Despair Event Horizon and have done many actions in the past to nearly kill Tsubakura and/or Yabusame. They even try to attack and kill the Shitodo Siblings because they think it would make Tsubakura feel even worse, and even manage to cost Hooaka an arm. They're responsible for causing the whole war in Brilliant Pagoda or Haze Castle, all just to lure out Tsubakura and kill them. To make matters worse, it's HEAVILY implied that they did something horrible to Tsurubami, the only one who could possibly even relieve Tsubakura and Yabusame of their duties and let them back into the outside world.
- Come the Secret Team routes added to each game, and some of Suzumi's monstrousness gets called into question, particularly as we get implications that Tsubakura did something to incur Suzumi's hatred, see one of their personalities object to Cold-Blooded Torture and killing and attacking bystanders, while the other personality, for all their bloodlust, entertains a desire to reconcile with the main cast. Even JynX himself says that it's a secret whether Suzumi is a villain or a hero.
Obviously the second-level bullet shouldn't be there, but does anyone know anything about the concerns raised by it?
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Professor Gigachad
That is concerning if true, but I will wait on opinions from people more familiar with the character.
Seconded.
so it’s kinda like Acnologia becoming a dragon, no agency’s lost, but he becomes worse.Regarding Professor Zombie, I posted details of her final confrontation with the Red Panda I'd left out of the initial EP here to address concerns about Agency. As noted, she basically went out on her terms. If youw ant to check anything firsthand this post has a link to the relevant episodes and which ones to listen to.
I relistened to one particular episode, "The Chimera Protocol", in which the Red Panda confronts a rogue army colonel, Sharpe, who had been experimenting on supervillains and/or forcing them to work for him, one of whom was Professor Zombie. The episode ends with the Red Panda having had a chance to examine Sharpe's records of what he'd been up to and discussing what he'd learned with the Prime Minster:
Red Panda: Not really. Not what I had hoped. Sharpe was forcing Professor Zombie to develop new Necronium compounds for his use. Variants that would allow the subjcts to retain high functions, drug cocktails that would drive populations to destroy themselves; most of her new bag of tricks. Heaven knows what he wanted it for.
Prime Minster: Power. Sharpe did everything for power.
Red Panda: Unleashing a plague you can not cure is not power, it is insanity! To say nothing of the means used to get it.
Prime Minster: Why was the Professor herself turned?
Red Panda: The records say a lab accident. Casual exposure to compounds she was unfamiliar with. I suppose it might be true. In any event, when her work was complete they did their best to erase her memory and then buried her.
Prime Minster: Buried her? Alive?
Red Panda: Well... aware, at any rate. They seemed to think she would never get free and found it amusing.
Prime Minster: If she would never get free, why erase her memory?
Red Panda: Yes. The truth is they didn't care. The zombification process must have protected most of her long-term memory. She emerged from her grave full of hate, but with no clear memory of Sharpe or Chimera, and she turned her rage onto a familiar default.
Prime Minster: You and your city.
Red Panda: Yes. I had hoped that understanding what happened to Professor Zombie would provide a solution; that perhaps there was a cure that was being withheld. But as complete as Sharpe's records are there is no hope to be found there. Only suffering and human misery...
So, I was thinking of adding more to Darkman. I only have watched the movies, so I don't know much about the novels or the comics. I do think that both Rooker and Dr. Thorne from Die Darkman Die are monstrous in their right. Rooker wanting to flood the city with steroids, an artificial type made from Darkman's adrenal gland, and Dr. Thorne wanting to continue making said steroids made from Darkman's adrenal gland.
Professor Gigachad
Alright, I did some digging into Suzumi Kuzu and it seems everything mentioned there is completely true so unless someone can provide a good counterargument I think that we will have to Cut her for now, though I would like to hear some more opinions.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:01:41 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
If you want to get to Rooker before I do, go ahead. I think he has a good chance. Thorne gets betrayed by him and as she's dying, is shocked that he didn't care about her.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:06:01 AM
Hey, go for it on Darkman, guys.
@Ordeaux: If this is accurate, I'm voting to cut.
@TBNY Rooker also tries to kill the DA by having him torn apart, gets his young daughter's face scarred and has Darkman tortured as well.
I was also considering Dr. Hathaway in The Return of Durant since he designs the laser weapon Durant is gonna sell. He may not count due to heinousness though. I considered Strack in the first one at one point too, but it was pointed out he doesn't personally do enough.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:07:36 AM
Professor Gigachad
Taking a look at her original EP it doesn't seem like that this stuff was even brought up that is not a good sign.
Given how the franchise works, they may not have been aware, being fair.
Showtime!
It sounds like the mitigating features are in unlocked content. So it might be an unintentional miss, but cut them either way
Changing to a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on Zimbie with the new info
Awesome, thank you FMW. I may have to discuss with you in terms of whom's whom in with Darkman's Monsters. Because I know Rooker's main thing was sending his hopped up, super roided goons to kill the DA, kills his lover, and kill his family all within the span of the last third of the movie.
Reminds me I should probably put up Strack from the book/comic like I meant to do a while ago...he's like only just cutting it there, but beyond being behind Durant's massacres like he is in the movie, the adaptations restore a deleted plot line where he murders his own dad, which is a pretty sizable step in bad.
Yeah, I was going to point that out since the novel makes Smiley even worse than his film counterpart, as he murders his kid brother with a smile on his face. Though I don't know if that's all was mentioned about Smiley compared to other members of Durant and his merry band of hencemen.
Here is another guy from Detective Conan Movies.
What’s The work
Fist of the blue Sapphire is the 23rd movie of the Detective Conan Series, this movie focuses on an jewel that is being kept safe to be the prize of an martial Arts Tournament happening in Singapore.
Who is He / What did he do
Leon lowe is an Criminal behavior psychologist, Former Singapore policeman, and Singapore Businessman who is the Guardian of Zhon Han Chen’s ‘fist of the blue sapphire’ jewel, one of the main targets of Kaitou Kid in the movie. Conan’s Gang came here to help Leon Lowe Protect the Jewel from Kaitou kid,
During the case, one of his workers, Sherilyn Tan is murdered, and in the meantime, the gang discusses the ways of protecting the jewel from Kaitou Kid. Later that night, he manages to catch Kaitou Kid attempting to steal the jewel. Instead of just incapacitating him with a taser, he attempts to fill the safe with the jewel in hopes of drowning him.
Before the Day of the tournament, Leon Lowe asks Makoto if he wants to be his bodyguard, and when he declines, he says to Makoto that ‘His fist will lead to others, including loved ones, suffering.’. Later Makoto and his girlfriend Sonoko are involved in a Incident with gangsters, and while fleeing from the scene, Sonoko gets into a car accident and Leon takes the opportunity to ‘train’ Makoto the meaning of ‘strength’.
Soon, it is revealed that he plotted all the things that happened above, the murder and the car accident, but there were not just that.
5 years ago, He had the idea of recreating the Marina bay as an city, but when Chen declines the idea, he had decided to destroy the Entire Marina Bay by driving an entire cruise into the city and have the Jewel in his hands, he hired Reijiro Nakatomi of the Japanese Shipping company only to frame him for his crimes and manipulate him into working as his minion after he pardoned his crimes.
While in the process of continuing his plot of destroying the Marina Bay, he found out that an Japanese photographer had found the Sapphire in a shipwreck, and silenced him so he can get the jewel. He framed Nakatomi and also pardoned this as well. (This man was revealed to be the father of one of his students, ‘Rishi Ramanathan’)
In hopes of getting his hands on the jewel on his hands after finding out that Chen had Jewel as the winning prize of the Karate Tournament that is held in Singapore, he hired Singaorean Martial Artist Hezli Jamaluddin as his bodyguard and make sure he wins the tournament so he can have the jewel, However when he finds out that Sherilyn knew that and attempted to stop him, he finally comes to a decision to silence her.
The Death Of Sherilyn was an trick used by him to cover up his crimes. First, He killed Sherilyn and made his secretary Rachel to act as Her, and when Rachel was ‘poisoned’ he had put the real corpse in the place where she was poisoned. Later, when discovering that Rachel was confessing her crimes, Leon Murders Rachel and framed Kaitou Kid as the murderer.
After when He committed all the crimes with his advantage, he tries to claim the Blue Sapphire until Rishi attempts to kill him to avenge the death of his father, having Leon’s Minions on his side. Kaitou kid manages to stop his murder, and later him and Rishi, Hezli were arrested by the Singaporean Police.
Any Mitigating Factors?
None, He is an greedy Monster who does not care about his allies and associates, and also murdered some of his accomplices after some of them tried to confess the crimes.
Heinous Standards
He was willing to murder anyone even they don’t know the jewel but if he suspects that one knows, and tried to commit and terroristic attack on Marina Bay Sands and possibly kill thousands of people in there justy so he can built a new city not for the profits of the other people but just for his greed, He also killed innocents just because he is paranoid that the jewel he is trying to keep is discovered, and manipulated the son of the man he killed to be his student.
Final Verdict
Yes?
Edited by PlatinumOni on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:43:35 AM
Goku Black
lowe
The Draftsman of Doom
@Scraggle Strack also has one of the most flippant examples of Bad Boss I’ve ever seen. When he kills one of his own men in the film (the Mook was tangled in a cable held by Darkman, Strack shoots the cable, Mook falls to his death), he shrugs and keeps firing. It’s one of the things I remember most about the guy.
Edited by k410ren on Jun 17th 2021 at 10:20:25 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lowe
I guess cut Suzumi (who originally did the EP?)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Oh, right, duh 😅
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts