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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#266026: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:05:13 PM

[tup]Marion

[tdown]Arthur (swing and a miss right there)

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#266027: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:07:31 PM

Yes to Mairon.

Add the Baron to the NA list.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:14:17 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266028: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:08:46 PM

Yes to Mairon.

You know, I hate to do this, but does John Dee still count? He had other actions, and what he did to the diner people is bad, but compared to the other keepers?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266029: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:08:50 PM

@Alice: Hey, you made a good proposal, on a completely reasonable and debatable case. This is exactly what's encouraged!

[up] yes. Yes he does. I honestly can't even consider that the horror of 24 hours in a diner isn't over the heinous standard with everything else Destiny pulls in the DCU. Keep in mind that Dee tries to go on a MUCH higher scale when he attempts to claim Dream's place as Dreamlord.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:11:50 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266030: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:09:06 PM

Yes to Mairon, sad no to Arthur. Hegel, I'm pretty sure you did the EP on the Snake Baron way back when. Greatly approve of the NA addition there Star and this is exactly why I want him listed: we seem to forget we've talked about him every single time Berserk gets mentioned. He's an awful starter villain with the personality but doesn't crack it given the setting, tbh he really just sets the tone for what most people who choose to become Apostles are like.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#266031: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:12:11 PM

[tup] to mairon

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#266032: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:13:39 PM

John Dee is still bad enough, yes—mind raping and torturing an entire diner for 24 hours with plans to take it global—and indeed already causing death and chaos in the process—is more than enough. If anything I'd have an issue with Dee's obvious mental instability, but even then his "evilness" wins out over the...Cloudcuckoolander nature he's sometimes prone to slip into, so not something I'd really feel is enough to disqualify.

Edited by Ravok on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:14:08 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266033: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:13:39 PM

Like I get it: He's awful, he's vile, the annihilation of the village is so visceral. It is our introduction to how brutal the world of Berserk can be. He's drinking the blood of a child and ordering everything in the town shish-kabobed

He is also left in the dust by about six other bad guys. It's the same reason we're so harsh on why a bunch of Khornates and Dark Eldar can't count in Warhammer 40K or Vargo Hoat in Song of Ice and Fire, or Dodoria in Dragonball Z. Sure, they'd keep in other settings. But not in this one.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:15:29 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#266034: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:14:53 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Dee plans to do that to the entire world

He stays

Edited by miraculous on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:15:29 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266035: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:19:43 PM

As a note? I'm sometimes lenient to "Okay, X kills 10 people, Y kills 9."

The Baron eats people and destroys a town. The Count? Led violent purges of Pagans before he was an Apostle then gets even worse and tortures and slaughters people on a much higher scale. Wyald is a shameless war criminal who despite having less authority than a Baron has a much higher legacy of torture and slaughter. Genon of Tudor is a serial pedophile rapist, war crimes in Berserk are commonplace.. You can't get on the list just destroying a single village...and this isn't factoring in how Ganishka runs an empire based on serial war crimes because he finds it fun....

Even Farnese used to be a horrible war criminal who's had tons of people burnt alive. And that isn't covering Rosine whose crimes blow the heinous standard away either despite being, hands down, one of the most tragic and sympathetic of the Apostles. We have a lot of Godhand followers who get up to seriously sick crimes...and followers of the church who get up to evil deeds as well.

The Baron is the epitome of a day late and a dollar short.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:21:04 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266036: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:21:15 PM

Only thing I'd maybe add there Star is that he's standard compared to other Apostales in general, since some may question why Wylad is the point of comparison when he's absent from the '97 incarnation.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#266037: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:27:26 PM

Hmmmm… Wyald’s the biggest competition, but I can incorporate both ideas at once - if there are no objections, I’ll take this updated NA entry to the locked pages thread:

  • Berserk: The Snake Baron (fails the heinous standard compared to other Apostles like Wyald, even in the 1997 anime)

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266039: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:30:07 PM

Holy shit, a SERIAL PEDOPHILE RAPIST fails the standard?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#266040: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:33:59 PM

Actually, no. Genon is like genuinely in love with Griffith. He's absolutely obsessed wiht him to the point of thinking Griffith wants to be with him, too.

He didn't rape Griffith, either. Griffith seduced him and prostituted himself to Genon for money and Genon literally screws up a strategy of one of the best generals around as not to see Griffith hurt in battle.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 17th 2021 at 3:34:50 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266041: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:34:13 PM

Nope but his victim (Griffith) sure as hell shatters any excuse that gave him to become one.

There's also the one fuck off torturer for the king of Midland who subjects Griffith to a year of hell for fucking the princess and loves his job with such sadistic glee he makes out with his victim's severed tongue and brags about his expertise across his work. You need volume to stand out here.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:40:09 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266042: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:42:55 PM

Goddamn, this manga sounds depressing as fuck. Like, I don't mind gore, at all, but my god.

And Rosine seems like she'd be an EASY keeper if not for her backstory.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#266043: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:43:53 PM

Oh and there's the freaking King of Midland who has Griffith agonizingly tortured for a year, ordered the massacre of the band of Hawk, tried to rape his own daughter and unleashed Wyald fully knowing that the latter will massacre and rape everyone on his path.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#266044: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:50:26 PM

So... we all on the same page with the issues the Baron runs into now?

Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#266045: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:50:55 PM

[tup] to Mairon. Abstaining on Arthur because I loathe the Oldboy remake and am far too biased against it to make a proper judgment.

@ACW Yeah, Berserk is a dark series, even by dark fantasy standards.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#266046: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:51:16 PM

Yep, I'll take the entry to the Locked Pages thread

Edit: And done

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:55:02 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#266047: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:55:28 PM

Starcrusher, remember we already have Griffith, so it should be a tree.

Should we add Mozgus?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#266048: Jun 17th 2021 at 3:57:09 PM

Griffith is a CM, Baron is not. They're in separate sections so they can't be a tree - it's like the two Ace Attorney guys (von Karma and Blaise)

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 17th 2021 at 6:57:45 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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