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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#265626: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:20:33 PM

The movie dosent play it as PV tho, we see a scene of him saying how Thor dosent know the cost of war before looking off to the side saying 'I do', and only changes his tune when thor murders a bunch of his people over an insult.

Raza is, only even remotely notable thanks to being the MC Us Starter Villain, and even then he wasn't even the first Big Bad. He only does what he does thanks to Stanes backing and is little more then a pawn who gets cast aside by Stane. Maybe if it was just the first film but as is he's blown out of the water.

Bow to the Prototype
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#265628: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:23:43 PM

As nasty as he is, Raza is nothing since he's just a major part in Stane's villainy and Laufey I'm totally in agreement with Bull and Ravok about.

Even if we just looked at the first Iron Man without any other movie, I'm convinced Stane would likely be the only keeper. As is, neither of them make it at all.

Four MCU film keepers since last Wednesday (6/9 was Dormammu's EP). That's quite the accomplishment. Hell of a unicorn we found.

Well done people, well done.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 16th 2021 at 12:26:34 PM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#265629: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:23:53 PM

Missed the Grandmaster EP, [tup] to them

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#265630: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:26:08 PM

Yes to the Grandmaster no to Zola

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#265631: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:33:55 PM

[tup] to Grandmaster

Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#265632: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:34:40 PM

Regarding Laufey, I'd like to point out that he started a war against the Nine Realms long before Loki was even born, starting by attacking Earth, destroying entire towns and trying to bring a new Ice Age to Kill All Humans, so it's false to say that "he was just being manipulated by Loki". Also, he didn't have the power of an Infinity Stones at his disposal, so he's clearly inferior in terms of resources to Malekith, as well as the likes of Dormammu or Ego.

Regarding Raza, there's one thing to take in consideration: At the time of his appearance, the MCU was still mostly realistic, so Raza is pretty much just a normal terrorist. It's unfair to compare him to the like of Ultron, Mysterio or even Whiplash (though I think Raza is easily way more heinous than Whiplash), since he doesn't have access to advanced technology or armies of drones at his disposal, the only things he has in his possession are some henchmen and mostly normal weapons (the best he has is a few Jericho missiles, but even that is nothing particularly outlandish compared to the weapons of the future MCU villains). That being said, he made it clear that if he managed to obtain some Iron Man armors, he'll use them to ravage Asia to conquer it, and then probably do the same to the entire world.

Edited by Mimic45 on Jun 16th 2021 at 9:37:21 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#265633: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:35:45 PM

Know who else started a war before Loki was born? Odin, who bathed the realms in blood and death with Hela.

Raza does nothing special. It’s a point where he’s not cutting it I matter what the tier argument is

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 16th 2021 at 12:36:24 PM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#265634: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:37:22 PM

Oh yeah, Odin was no saint himself lol. I completely forgot he was a warlord with a bloody conquest in the past [lol]

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#265635: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:39:15 PM

Yeah at this point I think it's going to take some research to unearth keepers from the franchise beyond just memories of the films. That Zola is causing any question about heinousness should really tell you all you need to know.

Paireon I wear no mask. from Wherever you go there you are Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I wear no mask.
#265636: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:40:29 PM

Still voting [tup] to Zola, for the same reasons I mentioned previously. (also, I know that feel Lighty; nothing personal)

Voting keep for Alexander/Tim; kinda impressive rap sheet for freakin' fry cook. I really have to watch Murder Party.

[tup] to Grandmaster. That series seems to lay on the Indian patriotism pretty thick, kinda like 80s/early 90s US actioners.

Leaning [tdown] for Raza and Laufey for not meeting the standards (fun fact: in the original Norse Mythology Laufey was actually the name of Loki's mother; his father's name was Farbauti)

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#265637: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:40:49 PM

Yeah Laufey doesn't do anything unique, especially since Hela did basically the same thing along with a whole bunch of onscreen murder. Raza for his part is just a generic terrorist, nothing special even for his low resources. Also it is fair to compare him to later villains since that's what we do with other franchises (hence why Master Tao from Dragon Ball no longer counts).

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#265638: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:42:15 PM

[tdown]to Laufey; plus in the present day he doesn't want to get dragged into a war, knowing how much it cost him.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#265639: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:42:46 PM

Just gonna say it, Crossbones? Mid level thug with like a gang of guys when he goes on his own? Worse then Raza

Saying he's been blown out of the water is putting it mildly. He's been lasered from orbit out of the water with about 3 Nukes dropped after to make sure the job was done.

Bow to the Prototype
Paireon I wear no mask. from Wherever you go there you are Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I wear no mask.
#265640: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:43:44 PM

[up][up][up]Tao Pai Pai is out? Eh, fair enough. Still a Knight of Cerebus anyway.

Edited by Paireon on Jun 16th 2021 at 3:44:33 PM

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#265641: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:45:04 PM

[tup] Angus, Alexander, Zola and Grandmaster

[tdown] Laufey and Raza

I ran this by ACW who said it was worth discussing:

"You needn't have come so far, Asgardian! Death would have come to you soon enough! Your universe was never meant to be. Your world and your family will be extinguished!"
Malekith, Thor: The Dark World

Thoughts?

Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#265642: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:45:11 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] I only meant it's unfair to compare Raza to those villains since they have much more than him in terms of resources (armies of drones, hologram technology, gravity machine...) while he's just a mostly normal terrorist. A better comparison would have been with Crossbones post-HYDRA (I'm pretty sure Raza caused more deaths during his attack of Gulmira than Crossbones during his attack of Lagos), or maybe Ulysses Klaue.

But yeah, I guess Raza and Laufey don't count. I still felt they at least deserved a discussion.

Edited by Mimic45 on Jun 16th 2021 at 9:52:00 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#265643: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:45:35 PM

Says a lot about Dragon Ball's heinous standard, forever abstaining on Zola.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#265644: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:48:04 PM

[up][up] Just to let you know, fewer resources isn't always a get approved free card, Look at Van Zant who has dick resources only having a few guns yet still fails the massive heinous standards of Dragon Ball. Van Zant syndrome is a thing you know.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Jun 16th 2021 at 3:49:01 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#265645: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:48:56 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]We cut him since the sheer number of terribly evil bad guys In dragon ball. Meant he was just too outdone.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 16th 2021 at 12:49:19 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#265646: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:51:56 PM

With all the MCU talk, I thought that the “Grandmaster” in question was Jeff Goldblum’s character from Thor: Ragnarok and I was like "seriously, all those yes votes?"

Anyway, [tup] not-Goldblum Grandmaster.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#265647: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:53:01 PM

[up] The Grandmaster is not even close to a CM. Great character but not even remotely this trope.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 16th 2021 at 12:58:09 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#265648: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:53:21 PM

Yeah uh lol no. Hes way too goofy and affable.

Secretly hoping for his return. So I can add him as an mb

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#265649: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:54:32 PM

I'm honestly not even sure if he would pass the general standard yeah he is a tyrant but he doesn't really do anything super bad.

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#265650: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:54:45 PM

Yeah that’s why I was like "wow someone must've made a hell of a case."

I hope he returns too because Jeff Goldblum is always excellent.

[tdown] Raza and Laufey, by the way. Neither of them stand out remotely enough.

Edited by rosewood47 on Jun 16th 2021 at 3:56:52 PM


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