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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#264452: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:09:43 PM

Sounds like a yes from me, boss

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#264453: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:09:48 PM

[tup]Callum

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#264455: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:12:58 PM

[tup] to Gabriel, Pinhead, G.M. Dark, Zobek, Volvo, and Callum Chase.

[tdown] to Stark, Tsumugi Shirogane, Charles Hooper, Baroness von Hellman, Discord, and Mr. Krabs.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
NattesNovgrel from The Middle of Misery, South of Iowa Since: Apr, 2020
#264458: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:21:22 PM

Late yes to Mr. Dark

Out of curiously, does the new moral agency rule mean the villains from Funny Games are eligible now?

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#264459: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:25:40 PM

[up] What exactly is the reason none of them can count?

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#264461: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:48:58 PM

[up][up][up] I don't think moral agency is the issue with them. They seem to genuinely care for each other.

NattesNovgrel from The Middle of Misery, South of Iowa Since: Apr, 2020
#264462: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:51:37 PM

[up]

[up][up][up]

I thought I remembered that one of the arguments against them were that one of them knew they were in a movie, and thus called into their agency

I’ve never seen either version so I’m probably wrong

Edited by NattesNovgrel on Jun 11th 2021 at 7:51:48 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#264463: Jun 11th 2021 at 5:53:25 PM

Gabriel, Pinhead, Mr. Dark, Zobek, Volvo, and Callum.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WoodsyGrabass2019 Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: In love with love
#264464: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:09:45 PM

Are both versions of Patrick Bateman CMs, or just the novel version? He's pretty toned down in the film, plus he chooses not to kill Jean although there was nothing stopping him from doing so.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#264465: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:12:40 PM

We agreed he counts in the film. His "redeeming qualities" exist in the form of an alien-like interest in people whose behaviour amuses or befuddles him rather than genuine care. It's like God "sparing" people in Preacher.

Also fuck, Callum Chance. I'll fix it for the writeup.

[down] Correct.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 11th 2021 at 9:24:11 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#264466: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:12:59 PM

[up][up] Technically speaking the film version isn't listed here due to being to similar to his canon counterpart.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 11th 2021 at 6:13:13 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#264467: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:20:47 PM

Yeah Bateman counts in the film. It's just he's to similar to his book version to get a separate entry.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WoodsyGrabass2019 Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: In love with love
#264468: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:20:48 PM

I just remembered that he calls Jean a "dumb bitch" during his Villainous Breakdown on the phone. Yeah, his "care" for her may not be genuine.

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Jun 11th 2021 at 9:26:20 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#264469: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:23:33 PM

[tup] Barty Crouch Junior and Zobek.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#264471: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:27:05 PM

[tup]Zobek and Volvo

IPP Wick Check created.
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#264472: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:30:41 PM

Hey, guess who's back! Myself that is.

Yes, I haven't been active in a long time, but I had to deal with a couple of real life issues.

Rather suprised that Grevious was upvoted here, seems quite a lot has changed while I was on hiatus.

[tup] Zobek [tdown] Mr. Krabs(not to mention I don't think this sort of character is conductive for CM trope) and [tdown] fanfic!Lotso.

Edited by xie323 on Jun 11th 2021 at 6:31:24 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#264474: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:39:15 PM

Also cuz I don't like how many things I've missed voting on lemme quickly catch up: Yes to Gabriel, Pinhead, Dark and Zobek; No to the Baronness, Discord and Krabs.

Pikamencer079 Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: Married to the job
#264475: Jun 11th 2021 at 6:47:59 PM

What's the Work?

Heroes Reborn (2021) is an ongoing 2021 event by Marvel Comics, focusing largely on the Squadron Supreme in a world where they are the Earth's mightiest heroes instead of the Avengers and everything is a Captain Ersatz of a DC Comics property. For this entry, my candidate is this world's version of Norman Osborn, referred to as the Goblin instead of Green Goblin here.

Who is the Goblin and What Has He Done?

The Goblin, real name Norman Osborn, was formerly the CEO of Oscorp and is now one of Nighthawk's most dangerous and personal foes. Before his transformation into a criminal, Norman frequently belittled his son Harry, contributing to his downward spiral into becoming a drug addict and falling into a coma. Exposing himself to his own formula, Norman took the Goblin alias and became a frequent enemy of the vigilante Nighthawk, adopting Deadpool as a partner at some point in his criminal career.

Discovering Nighthawk's secret identity of Congressman Kyle Richmond, the Goblin invaded his Nightcave and they fought, ending with Kyle fracturing Norman's skull and subsequently saving his life, with Norman losing his memory of ever being the Goblin and of Kyle's identity. Eventually, his memory returned, and he once again snuck into the Nightcave, kidnapping Nighthawk's sidekick Falcon and killing Redwing in the process, intending to make Kyle suffer. Taking Falcon to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, the Goblin engaged in battle with Nighthawk when he arrived to rescue his sidekick before knocking Falcon off of the bridge, leading to his death after Nighthawk tried to save him using a line, resulting in Falcon's neck breaking from the whiplash effect. Furious, Nighthawk tackled the Goblin, who was very nearly killed by his adversary before the hero decided against it, leading to Osborn's incarceration at Ravencroft Asylum.

Listening to the ramblings of fellow inmate Silver Witch about the world being "wrong", the Goblin staged a takeover of the asylum along with other inmates in a bid to lure Nighthawk there, planning to force Kyle to kill him so he can prove that he can break him. To that end, he took Dr. Gwen Stacy hostage, aware of her career as Kyle's partner Nightbird, and exposed her to his Goblin Gas before dropping her from the upper floor, driving her insane despite Kyle saving her. Watching as Nighthawk is forced to fight Gwen, Norman was badly injured when one of the hero's Hawkarangs hit him in the face before he drove it deeper in an attempt to kill himself. Expecting to die as Kyle calls the paramedics, the Goblin continued to try and goad him into finishing the job before telling him with a smile not to let the world change back to normal, as he liked it this way. His fate afterwards is unknown.

Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

The Goblin doesn't have any redeeming qualities whatsoever and he remorselessly delights in making people suffer, especially if they're close to Nighthawk. Even before he became a super-criminal, Norman neglected and verbally abused his own son, which is part of the reason Harry became a drug addict. Although he knows that the world is not the way it should be, he still insists that it be kept the way it is, implied to be because it allows Nighthawk to continue to suffer.

Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?

Although the Goblin is hardly as large-scale a threat as other Squadron adversaries like Doctor Juggernaut, Thanos, the Silver Witch, and others, he arguably commits the most heinous and personal crimes of the numerous adversaries the heroes face. Sure, many of them have undoubtedly terrorized society, but Norman in particular is one of the few with a ferocious vendetta against their respective rivals, with his primary motivation for killing and maiming innocent lives being to torment Nighthawk. The moments he leaps across the Moral Event Horizon are when he kills Sam Wilson in cold blood and drives Gwen Stacy to madness, the former of which shakes Kyle so badly that he refuses to take another sidekick. While amoral themselves, none of the Squadron themselves don't make the cut for CM because in spite of their Blood Knight tendencies, they still try to help people and believe they are doing the right thing.

Final Verdict?

I don't know about you, but I believe the Goblin is an excellent candidate for Complete Monster status.


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