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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#263352: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:11:07 AM

Abstain on Azrael given the Deleted Scene. Plus there’s this on his entry on the series’ character page since CMs typically aren’t the type to cross the Despair Event Horizon.

  • Despair Event Horizon: While it's not obvious due to his snarky Psychopathic Man Child It's All About Me attitude, Azrael in a deleted scene hints that he's an extremely tormented soul full of despair and wanting to end it all because of his pain. While a mortal being might simply mock him as selfish, keep in mind, he was once an angel constantly in the light of God living in heaven. Then he was cast down and eternally separated from the paradise he enjoyed, simply because he didn't want to fight. If that wasn't enough, the souls damned to hell turned the dark void into a nightmare world of agony and torment, fueled by the evil in their souls and the prideful belief that they either won't ask God for forgiveness, or that they are beyond forgiveness. While Azrael is being a dick, he genuinely has suffered terribly.

Though if Azrael is going up, he kills 1 (the “holy” bartender). His minions kill a few more: the blue-plaid clad Stygian Triplet kills 1 and The Golgothan kills 6 (the six gang members).

Edited by k410ren on Jun 7th 2021 at 9:18:18 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#263353: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:12:40 AM

Abstain on Azzy.

[down] Re-reading the EP, sure to Azrael.

[down][down] Nor have I.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 7th 2021 at 9:23:26 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#263354: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:16:23 AM

We don't count deleted scenes there, remember.

Also, asking "can Bartleby and Loki keep"...I take it you've never seen Dogma because nooooooo

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 7th 2021 at 6:18:11 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#263355: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:22:43 AM

[up] 'Tis correct, I have indeed never seen Dogma.

Edited by ACW on Jun 7th 2021 at 9:22:52 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#263356: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:30:31 AM

Loki has no idea what he's doing will result in the destruction of reality. He dies trying to stop Bartleby, who has a sobbing breakdown when God shows up, saying how sorry he is and thanking her when he dies. Universes away from this trope.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#263357: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:33:47 AM

Alright then.

I'll give a cautious yes to Azrael as long as his FE's not played sympathetically.

Atlantis, I don't think that Divinity entry was approved.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#263358: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:34:12 AM

[tup] to Azrael

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#263359: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:46:39 AM

[tup] Azazel...yet another example of somene I considered way back when before he got shot down.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#263360: Jun 7th 2021 at 7:09:18 AM

[tup]Sheeta & Azrael ([up]in that case he’s the 2nd guy played by Jason Lee to have been shot down before on the thread.)

Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 7th 2021 at 7:09:58 AM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#263361: Jun 7th 2021 at 7:10:07 AM

Gonna go against the pack and [tdown] Azrael. Based on the write-up, he's outheinoused by Bartleby and Loki regardless of their intent/if they count.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#263362: Jun 7th 2021 at 7:13:55 AM

Eh, what the hell? I’ll switch to no too.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#263363: Jun 7th 2021 at 7:23:32 AM

Why and how is he outheinoused?

For the large first chunk of the movie, Loki and Bartleby's intent is to get their sins forgiven and get back into heaven, based on Azrael lying to them to unmake reality. Bartleby only snaps at the very end and that puts him about equal to Azrael.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 7th 2021 at 7:24:47 AM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#263364: Jun 7th 2021 at 7:44:48 AM

I'm going off of this part of the write-up:

"While Azazel has no regard for human life and plans to destroy existence, the number of people we see him kill is nothing compared to Bartleby and Loki. Loki - a former angel of death - kills evil people along the way to the church. Bartleby snaps near the end and kills indiscriminately at the church ceremony they planned to use as a loophole."

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#263365: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:05:18 AM

I guess for Azrael the question is if he takes any concrete steps.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#263366: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:10:31 AM

I mean, the whole movie is Azrael's plot, he lies to Bartleby and Loki to send them off further...

I'm not seeing how Bartleby outdoes the guy who set things in motion based off a single massacre.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#263367: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:23:09 AM

...I likewise fail to see how manipulating people into killing a large number of people is dwarfed by some other guy killing a smaller number of people of his own volition.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#263369: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:44:49 AM

Also, isn't Azrael basically an Omnicidal Maniac? That should pretty much put them higher than his minions.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#263371: Jun 7th 2021 at 9:17:27 AM

Sure to Azzy, Second for Jason Lee after Syndrome.

Cut Mash and Rufio.

Bow to the Prototype
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#263372: Jun 7th 2021 at 9:52:47 AM

Here is someone, i'm conflicted about, but decided to propose regardless

What is the Work?

The Invincible Iron Man is another animated Origin Movie, this time about the Iron Man, that was released in 2007, a year before the live action Iron Man movie hit the cinema. Retelling the origin of how Tony Stark became the Iron Man, the movie follows his journey, as he is kidnapped by an extremist group and faces his archenemy for the first time.

My candidate is Mandarin.

Who is Mandarin?

Formerly a tyrant and the first ruler of China, whose is famous for leading the darkest and the most violent of all dynasties, with hundreds of thousands getting killed under his brutal reign. As explained in the alternate opening in the DVD:

"A prophecy needs no one to believe in it. For it gathers strength for those who do not. And when it has faded from all memory it becomes its most powerful. This is the lost age of China. A time of violence and evil. A dynasty predating all others and ruled by a dark emperor: the Mandarin. Fearing the end of his reign, the Mandarin sought to preserve his empire. As the afterlife grew near he completed his temple, carved an army from the Earth, and forged a covenant from the Deities of Death. But such a pact carries a high price. The sacrifice of every life within the Mandarin's mighty empire. To aid in collecting the deities endowed him with five Elementals. Demons from the underworld. In one year's time the Mandarin and his dark forces stripped the land of all living things. And when the last drop of innocent blood was spilt the pact was sealed. In exchange for these souls the Mandarin was presented with five jeweled bands that would grant him eternal life and all the power of the underworld. But these gifts would not be his until he himself had passed through the very gates of death. So upon the Mandarin's last breath of life the land poured over the city. There it would remain buried for three thousand years. Now all that remains is the prophecy that foretells the Mandarin's return. It speaks of the day when his temple will rise and the Elementals will awaken. They will gather the bands of the underworld and with them they will resurrect their master. But China has forgotten this dark chapter and fears not the echos of the past nor believes the prophecy. The Jade Dragons know the truth however and for centuries have kept the prophecy at bay. But destiny will not be cheated. The day of the Mandarin is upon us."

In present times, Tony Stark and his friend and coworker James Rhodes try to help the Chinese company to rise the Mandarin's buried temple out of the ground, with The Jade Dragons regularly attacking them to try to stop them from doing that, due to the fact that this will allow Mandarin's spirit and his servants, The Elementals, to fulfil the prophecy and ressurect himself, which would also lead to him attacking entire world and killing large amounts of people to use their souls for sacrifice. Rhodes nevertheless managed to rise Mandarin's temple out of the ground, which led to The Jade Dragons top attack the facility and kill most of the workers there, capturing Rhodes and Tony Stark, who arrived there, forcing them to build the weapons for them.

Tony Stark finds out about the prophecy, he builds a prototype Iron Man armor for himself, fights off The Jade Dragons and frees himself and Rhodes, after which he tries to stop The Elementals from recovering the 5 rings, that would allow Mandarin to ressurect himself. Iron Man manages to destroy nearly all Elementals and recover the rings, traveling to Mandarin's temple, where Mandarin's pet dragon killed all of The Jade Dragons, aside from Li Mei, where he discovers that Li Mei herself is a descendant of Mandarin, and was tasked by her family line (on Mandarin's orders) to serve as a vessel for Mandarin.

As Li Mei goes to the temple, Iron Man fights the remaining Elemental and Mandarin's dragon, where Li Mei sees countless bones of Mandarin's victims (The Temple is literally filled with them) and arrives at mandarin's grave, where Mandarin posesses her.

As Iron Man confront him, Mandarin announces: "She has served her purpose, Iron Knight. As for you, your blood must now be shed and the prophecy fulfilled.". They battle, with Mandarin overpowering Iron Man and commanding Li Mei to kill him, only for Li Mei to refuse, leading to Mandaring smiling and starting to torture her for daring to disobey him. Li Mei then manages to take off the rings from hand, which destroyed Mandarin, at the cost of her life.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

None. The only thing that can be said against him is his lack of personality, since he only appears in person at the final battle and has like 3 pieces of dialogue, nevertheless, i think he gather just enough to breach GDV level, from the DVD exclusive opening to various talks about his cruelty to the final battle, where he tortures Li Mei with glee and wide smile. I think he is established as cruel and sadistic enough in the story.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

While The Jade Dragons are responsible for the deaths of dozens of innocent workers to prevent Mandarin's ressurection, Mandarin himself still outheinous them by a wide mile. He killed hundreds of thousands during his reign, with us seeing countless bones, which fill his temple, and who are explicitly belong to his victims, his pet dragon killed and eaten the remaining Jade Dragons and his intention to raze the world after his ressurection, make him heinous enough.

Final Verdict?

What do you think?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jun 7th 2021 at 7:54:47 PM

CaptainPinkiePie from Equestria with love Since: Mar, 2019 Relationship Status: Brony
#263373: Jun 7th 2021 at 10:05:38 AM

[tup]Azrael. 2nd for Jason Lee, I believe (with the first being Syndrome). EDIT: [up] You beat me to it.

Oh, and [tup]Mandarin.

Edited by CaptainPinkiePie on Jun 7th 2021 at 2:07:23 PM

Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#263374: Jun 7th 2021 at 10:09:53 AM

Sure to Mandarin. I think this would be, strangely, his first CM incarnation, despite first appearing only a year (I think a little less) later than Iron Man himself.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#263375: Jun 7th 2021 at 10:10:07 AM

Sure to Mandarin. [up] wasn't there a book version of him that also counts for this trope?

Edited by Powermaster201 on Jun 7th 2021 at 1:10:43 PM


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