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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26276: Jun 4th 2014 at 6:58:56 PM

He never states a reason for wanting Godhood, but he is cruel and manipulative in his quest to attain the power of God for himself.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26277: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:01:44 PM

[up] Are Lucifer, YHVH, and company present in that corner of the SMT-verse? That'd be some pretty stiff competition if they are.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:01:50 PM by HamburgerTime

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26278: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:07:34 PM

No, Brahman is the big god in the Digital Devil Saga games and he's portrayed as close to his real world mythology as possible, innocent and incapable of evil as we understand it.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26279: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:10:30 PM

Okay, so it sounds like DDS is a comparatively smaller-scale setting to most other SMT games with the big god staying out. In that case, [tup] for Serph. He had one other yes vote; what about you, Melon?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26280: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:15:13 PM

Oh I'll also give Serph Sheffield a [tup].

edited 4th Jun '14 7:43:39 PM by VeryMelon

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#26281: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:41:08 PM

EDIT: Realized I was referencing the wrong fairy tale. Apologies.

No on the queen. Fairy tales are full of stuff like this, and the fact that her husband is a rapist doesn't make me feel better about her inclusion. Throw in the fact that fairy tale canon is iffy at best and I'm not comfortable with it. The myth stuff was dodgy enough as relates to canon.

@HT

You make it sound like the Haman discussion was some long, ugly thing. As I recall it you and I, and the others involved, had a pretty decent, civil conversation.

[up]You might want to reconsider that. She's got moral agency, sure, but what she doesn't have is a goddamn personality. There's nothing there to judge in most renditions of the story. And that's without getting into the fact that there are many renditions of the story.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:45:57 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#26282: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:41:24 PM

Any thoughts on some of the Anime & Manga examples I brought up?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26283: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:45:09 PM

[up][up] It was exhilarating, to be sure, but tiring. I wouldn't want to have anything of that caliber again, not because I disliked it, but for my own sanity. tongue

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#26284: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:45:50 PM

Actually, Ambar, she also tried to kill children and then serve them up to her husband. She tried to kill Talia later on, so it's not exactly trying to kill one person. And like I said before, she's clearly more heinous as related to other fairy tale villains, because she's a human, not some Always Chaotic Evil creature or carnivorous animal. She's a monster, because she's a simple human.

However, I understand your reasoning, Ambar.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:52:16 PM by AustinDR

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#26285: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:50:42 PM

[up]Just found and reread your post, and have edited mine accordingly. I'd somehow got it in my head that you were talking about the queen from Snow White rather than the wife of the prince in a take on Sleeping Beauty.

Regardless I'll still say no. Other fairy tale villains are just as bad, and before someone brings up moral agency I'd like to remind everybody that just because somebody else can't help what they do, doesn't stop them from impacting the heinous standard. A character who is insane, Made of Evil, or otherwise morally exempt from consideration here can still set the heinous bar. Some of what Lightysnake referenced when he brought up Tom Thumb is a good example.

Finally, I'll note again that when we're dealing with fairy tales and myths we run into the colossal problem of trying to figure out the canon, and who has to be contrasted with who. When we did the myth examples we tried to cite specific bodies of work—The Bible, Apollodorus' Library, Ovid's Metamorphoses, what have you, because just saying Greek myth, or Christianity, would be iffy at best. What's the canon for this version of Sleeping Beauty you dug up? Where does it fit into the fairy tales of its region, etc? Before I know that, I can't give a yes vote.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#26286: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:52:39 PM

Sorry for the confusion. Also, it was written by Giambattista Basile. He's from Italy, and he wrote it in a book called the Pentamerone.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:55:09 PM by AustinDR

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26287: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:52:49 PM

You have an opinion on Serph, Ambar? I linked to his rapsheet.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#26288: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:53:50 PM

Also, just as a random comment, there's also like Bluebeard and similar stories including the Robber Bridegroom as examples of human cruelty. And you could probably throw in how although some tellings don't include this, it is often a matter of course that those who fail an Engagement Challenge will be executed- which as some tellings will elaborate, entails killing hundreds of people for a petty reason (granted, the stories don't usually treat this as heinous).

But with that in mind, trying to kill one person or even a couple of people out of misguided revenge doesn't seem all that heinous.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:55:17 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#26289: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:55:06 PM

[up][up]I'll take a look.

[up][up][up]My fault. I should have reread your first post and not the discussion that came later.

Anyway, can you find out more about the body of fairy tales that this story is from? I think that not only I personally, but the group as a whole should have a body of work to consider before we start putting up characters from canon that scattered.

[up]This. The problem with any story that's told again and again, and collected by different authors from different people is that you get that author's particular take on the story rather than any sort of authoritative version. That's why I'm so insistent on knowing more about this canon before saying yes.

edited 4th Jun '14 7:56:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26290: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:58:24 PM

Yeah, for any story that's told and retold, getting a concrete version is vital. I recall when we threw out Lamashtu because we couldn't find an actual myth for her, just collections of anecdotes.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#26291: Jun 4th 2014 at 8:00:35 PM

Well, there's Parsley, a variant of Rapunzel, Penta of the Chopped-Off Hands, a Girl Without Hands variant, and many others. Sorry I can't think of any certain example. Also, I'm quite certain that Giambattista wrote the original, since Charles Perrault later redid the version that he wrote a few years later. You can look for it here [1].

edited 4th Jun '14 8:10:20 PM by AustinDR

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26292: Jun 4th 2014 at 8:35:48 PM

As far as it goes, if you can provide info on the heinous standard of this collection, I'd be glad to consider it.

The Texnolyze one I'd be inclined to keep. He seems insane, not lacking agency. As for Tiger and Bunny...Here are rewrites:

  • Dr. Rotwang, Mad Scientist extraordinaire who thrives on a Fantastic Racism for the superpowered NEXT. First introduced as a one-shot villain creating robots to take on the heroes, Rotwang appeared in the final episodes as the partner to the Big Bad of the series with one goal on his mind: to wipe out the NEXT and replace them with his robots. Rotwang mocked the very concept of friendship while trying to kill the city of Sternbild's superheroes, calling their friendship and devotion to one another 'pathetic.' Hateful, cruel and genocidal, Rotwang is truly a monster in even the idealistic show.
  • The Big Bad of the show, Albert Maverick, seemingly the kind and friendly benefactor of superheroes and founder of Hero TV. Maverick was secretly a member and one leader of the crime syndicate Ouroboros and was involved in many criminal activities. To make things easier for himself, he presented NEXT as marketable to gain them fans and create a superhero legacy, all the while hiding his being a NEXT himself whose power was Mind Rape. Maverick would murder the parents of future hero Barnaby Brooks to mold the boy into his perfect pawn- rewriting his memories every time Barnaby got too close to the truth. When he realized Barnaby's partner Kotetsu was too close to the truth, Maverick had Barnaby's mother figure Samantha murdered and framed Kotetsu, wiping the memories of everyone who knew his superhero identity. After this failed, he revealed he fully intended to wipe out his own NEXT and replace them with more easily controllable robots created by Rotwang. Feeling nothing but egotistical disgust at the doctor, the second his safety was compromised, Maverick murdered Rotwang after revealing he himself was NEXT. When cornered, Maverick even held Kotetsu's young daughter Kaede hostage with a gun to her head, with full intent to murder her if need be.

edited 7th Jun '14 8:57:41 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#26293: Jun 4th 2014 at 10:01:02 PM

@ACW

Why did you ask that the Godzilla page not be locked? For that matter, why did you alter the entries for the two comic villains. IDW publishing may have created both of them, but they are not in continuity with one another, and the edit you've made causes it to appear that they are. I've undone it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26294: Jun 4th 2014 at 10:07:32 PM

Yet again, I must point out trying to do everything on your own accord, particularly on works one is not quite familiar with, leads to more issues than it solves.

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#26295: Jun 4th 2014 at 10:28:59 PM

...ACW, if you keep this up I WILL come down to tyson's corner, wait for you to show up, and hand deliver a very strongly worded letter to you.

Except I don't really know what "this" is and I don't know what you look like and I'd rather not schlep out to Tysons and even if I did you might not be there, ever, so screw it.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#26296: Jun 4th 2014 at 10:49:47 PM

@26304 Thank you. I'll add that to the sandbox.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#26297: Jun 4th 2014 at 11:57:11 PM

Sorry Ambar sad. I've deleted that request. I'll not even bother with the "Title: Entry" style. Can I do the "Title: Entry" style?
[lol][lol][lol] at Kyle.
Someone please PM me about the Haman incident.
Disney and Star Wars are ready; I'll give the customary 48 hours, then we can get back to Complete Monster Live Action TV.

edited 5th Jun '14 1:24:28 AM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26298: Jun 4th 2014 at 11:59:30 PM

Okay, done with the LP. And I think I'll vote [tdown] on Ashnard. The tipping point for me? He welcomes his own death at the hands of someone stronger than him. Lighty is right in that Complete Monsters can have codes (otherwise we'd have to exclude all religious fundamentalists), but - and this may just be my opinion here - I don't think a true monster would apply that code to themselves. So in my view, Ashnard, like Kimblee, just misses the mark by being a bit too honest.

edited 4th Jun '14 11:59:56 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#26299: Jun 5th 2014 at 4:12:58 AM

We went over that exact point. It's not a disqualifiee. He was kept quite definitively. Also w doesn't quite welcome his death. He becomes undead to fight more.

Should we also cut the Joker for thinking his own death and defeat is funny, too?

Furthermore, Kimblee, as noted, did actually good things. Ash did not.

edited 5th Jun '14 5:54:55 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#26300: Jun 5th 2014 at 6:07:16 AM

[up]Well, I don't know about Ashnard, but I don't think we can use "the Joker also..."; dude's crazy [lol]


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