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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261626: May 25th 2021 at 9:42:01 AM

... What's the Great Sacrifice? I don't see that on Green's page.

[down] Ah, For Heaven's Eyes Only. Should that specific name be mentioned in the entry? I know the goal is, but not the actual name.

Edited by ACW on May 25th 2021 at 12:45:27 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261627: May 25th 2021 at 9:43:11 AM

The "kill every child in the world" plan.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261629: May 25th 2021 at 9:53:10 AM

Okay, one tiny thing I forgot with the Nightside trafficker (her name's Josie)...it's Offstage Villainy, but the heroes note Josie strangled her own son to death with her bare hands because IIRC he was revolted by his mother's business. I'm not really measuring it as part of her overall rapsheet (because, again, offscreen villainy and Precious Memories is more than enough anyway) but it's a more...IDK, personal flourish than anything characters like Malekith or Bartley get.

Would...would that be enough, or is her characterization still too much of an Informed Attribute?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261630: May 25th 2021 at 9:57:04 AM

I don't know if it's enough...but man, everything you've said about her makes me want her added SO, SO, SO bad...What happens to her BTW?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#261631: May 25th 2021 at 10:00:54 AM

I can’t find the scene with Mikey and the fish, so I’m gonna switch to abstain.

I’ve given this a great deal of thought, and I truly believe Lennox is closer to Gorea than Bartley. He doesn’t appear in gameplay, but he does appear in cutscenes. These cutscenes establish that he’s an intelligent enemy who killed the people after him pragmatically, and he fakes his death two different times before the game even starts. These are narrated by some of Keller’s colleagues and are briefly shown in the cutscenes. These videos also show various terrorist bombings and assassinations, with the narration revealing that Lennox did all of it with the government never able to keep up with him. His one line has a lot of long term consequences - because the government didn’t warn Keller that he was a fellow American, it kills Keller’s trust in the government and ensures that he doesn’t cooperate with the interrogation, turning his enemies against each other and creating all of the conflict in the present day story. And the fact that he doesn’t appear? It turns into a character choice. We’re led to believe one of the guys we kill in the final level is Lennox, except it turns out he used a body double to escape, reinforcing his intelligence, and when we’re led to believe we’re going to find and capture him, he escapes first and kills a dozen people on the way out. So in both occasions where we think we’ll see him and then don’t, it becomes character traits.

Plus, he’s got a history of Slowly Slipping Into Evil when he first founded his group under the CIA and slowly increased the casualties until the agency burned him, at which point he went rogue, caused an explosion that killed 90 people to fake his death, and started his weapon trafficking. By the end, he’s become such an unstoppable threat that the government has to let a confirmed war criminal on the loose to track him down, cementing him as an intelligent and dangerous enemy.

For his greed motivation, we’ve got just enough. He sells weapons to other terrorist organizations and is originally dismissed as a gun for hire, severely implying that he’s Only in It for the Money.

So yeah, the cutscenes do reveal a lot about him, for someone who never appears in gameplay. He’s intelligent and has a clear pattern of behavior, his backstory is rather fleshed out (far and away the most of the cast), his one line reveals him to be incredibly manipulative and has severe long term consequences, his intrinsic motivation is just barely backed up enough, the cutscenes show us a lot of terrorist acts that are confirmed to be his doing (the one attack we get a casualty number for is 90), and his confirmed personal kills (that we either see him do or the aftermath) is at least two dozen. Is he interesting? Not really, but he’s got enough, especially when a lot of his issues come from the Framing Device

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 25th 2021 at 1:10:18 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261632: May 25th 2021 at 10:04:45 AM

I found a video with the cutscenes:

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261633: May 25th 2021 at 10:20:42 AM

Where does he appear ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#261634: May 25th 2021 at 10:24:33 AM

Silence's writeup:

Dread X Collection: The Hunt: Brother Silence from Black Relic is the last member of the cursed family line of Templars, who have taken the oath of silence. Growing sick of the curse and deciding to get rid of it, Brother Silence kidnapped the grandson of Village Elder McGarth's and brutally killed him, solely to drive boy's father and gradfather mad and have them lead the pagan cult in attacking and slaughtering the entire Holy Order. Killing off the entire pagan cult as well, including Elder McGarth's and his son, to use their blood in his ritual, also breaking his oath by speaking for the first time, Brother Silence allows the vile Nephilim to possess him, planning to unleash his wrath upon the world.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261635: May 25th 2021 at 10:26:37 AM

[up][up] That I do not know.

BTW, gotten to Yost or Cobbe yet?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261636: May 25th 2021 at 10:28:30 AM

Give me time man. Eventually.[lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#261637: May 25th 2021 at 10:29:49 AM

Given that he’s the Big Bad, he’s either in or described in every cutscene - but the total amount of all the cutscenes and in-game dialogue is only about 20 minutes

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 25th 2021 at 1:30:12 PM

DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#261638: May 25th 2021 at 10:35:29 AM

[tup] to Silence, abstain on Mikey. Isn't the situation similar to Blofeld's cat?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#261639: May 25th 2021 at 10:39:10 AM

I'm gonna watch this convertion, but Mikey we need to pause until this is clarified.

As for Josie...ugh, I want her to keep, but we only see her once without a word, but the dialogue...it's not just the hero's narration, there's a horrific implication.

Josie Prince was a debt-collector, the kind who sent the leg-breakers round if you were a day late paying back what you owed. The Walking Man swept her a low, sarcastic bow. Her stern, disapproving features didn’t give an inch. He straightened up with a snap, sat in her lap, and threw an arm across her bony shoulders. “Sweet Josie Prince, as I live and breathe! Old in years and dyed in sin, right down to the bone. I know what I need to know, when I need to know it, so I can do my job, but just knowing what you do makes me sick to my stomach. You deal in enforcement and intimidation, in torture and brutality and murder. Everyone knows that. But does everyone here know you founded and funded Precious Memories? Do they know why your youngest son killed himself?”

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261640: May 25th 2021 at 10:49:19 AM

So, Mikey and the fish is that they were piranhas being taken care of by his family, and we see him taking Ben's frog and feeding them to said piranha. He loses his shit when the piranhas are taken away after being picked up. The feeding of the frog is directly after spying on Jessie sleeping.

Edited by TBNY on May 25th 2021 at 1:51:01 PM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#261641: May 25th 2021 at 10:53:11 AM

[up] So he uses them as murdering machines? Did he ever say why he was upset by his piranhas were taken away? Because from that scene alone, all I'm getting is that he's upset because he was denied a murder weapon.

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261642: May 25th 2021 at 10:57:38 AM

Yeah, Mikey believes they were his alone and they shouldn't be sold even though they were already being kept to be sold later.

Edited by TBNY on May 25th 2021 at 1:58:11 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#261643: May 25th 2021 at 11:00:58 AM

What's the tiemstamp on the scene?

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261644: May 25th 2021 at 11:02:19 AM

Glad you asked Lighty,

Here's the scene where he spies on Jessie and takes Ben's frog, only to feed them to the fish while filming its murder: https://youtu.be/S6FJgYxvlLI?t=2289 about 38 minutes into the movie.

Here's the scene where he argues about the fish being sold: https://youtu.be/S6FJgYxvlLI?t=3177 and this is about fifteen minutes later.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261645: May 25th 2021 at 11:11:40 AM

Okay, I'm slow...what's the implication with Josie?

Also, I found what happens to her...she gets unceremoniously shot in the back of the head while trying to run away [lol]

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#261646: May 25th 2021 at 11:14:49 AM

So basically he cherished the piranhas as killing machines?

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261647: May 25th 2021 at 11:16:46 AM

ACW, because of the J names, I thought Josie was in relation to Mikey and went, "No one was called that in the movie." Even though Mikey kills his teacher with the same method, but with a slingshot and a marble. [lol]

[up] I believe so, or just viewed them as killing machines/pets.

Edited by TBNY on May 25th 2021 at 2:17:34 PM

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#261648: May 25th 2021 at 11:25:01 AM

Watched the video with the Black All Cutscenes. Glad it was only 30 minutes, because this game looks horrible and the voice acting is something special. wink

Switch to [tdown] Lennox. Zero personality and barley appear in the game.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#261649: May 25th 2021 at 11:28:25 AM

If that’s the case, keeping my yes to Mikey

No to Lennox (though I always wanted to see a CM who we don’t see, but more like Dr. Claw where they still have a proactive role in the story)

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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